Lifting & Fasting

[Idolater]

I meant to include your statement here in my reply. You are pointed the wrong way. Get those ideas from your head.

When I'm weight training to build muscularity (which I do NOT do when fasting), I will eat more carbohydrate because it helps build more muscularity. Not too much, but some. It also builds some fat, which I then have to reduce through dieting later. If I am careful to keep eating the right amount of protein (dieting but not fasting), I can preserve the muscularity while simultaneously cutting fat tissue.

This is the idea behind "bulk and cut". You grow muscularity, with the appropriate hypertrophy weight training, easier when you eat some carbohydrate with your protein. Your body just likes having some easy to digest energy (carbohydrate) when it's building muscularity (which it does when you impose on it appropriate hypertrophy weight training). But it also builds some fat tissue.

As I said earlier in the thread, you can get stronger while fasting, meaning peak strength weight training (meaning 1-5RM range), but you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity, so it's a balancing act.

 

[Nick M]

but you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity, so it's a balancing act.

Demonstrably false. Much like your arguments for the "Holy See". I am done here, your brain washing is not something I will change. Well marbled steaks is definitely bigger, you got that much right.

 

[Idolater]

Demonstrably false.

Which part? That you're unavoidably going to lose muscularity when fasting? or that it's a balancing act?

Much like your arguments for the "Holy See". I am done here, your brain washing is not something I will change. Well marbled steaks is definitely bigger, you got that much right.

There's zero marbling in the muscularity of elite bodybuilders, you know this.

 

[Idolater]

I gained about three LBS of muscle and three LBS of fat (c. 12,000 calorie surplus over the course of the bulk, so if it was 24 days long, that's a 500 calorie daily surplus, which is two Snickers bars a day on top of your normal maintenance diet) on a hypertrophy bulk. As long as I can reduce the fat while retaining the muscle, I don't see the problem. You can't grow three LBS of muscle in a month or two unless you're willing to pay the price later on by dieting to reduce the fat, but by continuing to eat more than enough protein, and continuing to hypertrophy weight train, you can reduce a lot of that fat without losing hardly any muscle.

And, it will be faster to lose the fat, than it was to gain the muscle plus fat. So the fat is slow in coming, and quick in leaving, truly transient. You just have to keep it to two Snickers bars a day or thereabouts–don't jump to six Snickers bars or you'll add more fat than muscle, which just means you're going to have to diet for far longer, during which it is difficult to eat (because it's a caloric deficit, less food), and difficult to weight train (because it's a caloric deficit, recovery and restoration between workout sessions isn't as efficient).

That dieting period is very low carbohydrate compared to a maintenance or bulking diet. I can't help that muscle grows naturally more quickly in a caloric surplus. And your body needs protein for lots of things other than maintaining muscularity, so you have to eat more than enough protein (and especially on a diet, from lean, highly concentrated protein sources), and also continue to hypertrophy weight train, to stimulate your muscularity enough to just maintain your current muscularity, while your body fat lowers, which is during times of low insulin, because insulin inhibits adipose catabolism, because insulin is busy with adipose anabolism (tissue building). It's there to build fat tissue, not let it decompose and digest, insulin is the opposite thing that you want if you want fat tissue to anabolize quickly, but you can still lose fat quickly if you eat just Snickers bars, even if it's all you eat, just as long as it's below your maintenance calorie diet. (You'll lose muscle if you only eat Snickers bars, but for instance, say your daily caloric requirement at maintenance dieting is 2250. That's nine Snickers bars. If you eat literally only seven Snickers bars a day, you'll lose two and a half LBS of fat a month at that rate.)

But seven Snickers bars don't have enough protein, so you will lose muscularity. So you'll weigh less than just the two-and-a-half LBS reduced of fat at the end of the month, because you're also going to lose muscle mass, and your bathroom scale doesn't know the difference, so you're going to be happy to have lost 4-5 LBS on the scale, but except, 1-2 LBS was muscle, which you really don't want to celebrate as good weight loss. When you lose weight, you just want to lose fat, not muscle. It's not a good goal to lose muscularity, and it's even irresponsible and irrational to plan to lose muscularity (all other things being equal). It's disordered.

So say you fast: You can't hypertrophy train while fasting, you're not going to be able to keep up with your progressions (because of the inefficient recovery and restoration between workout sessions), but you can keep getting stronger if you have more runway available for neurological adaptations to peak strength weight training, which is going to be something like twice as heavy as hypertrophy weight training. iow this isn't going to help a competitive strong man (who has already run out of neurological adaptation runway), but it can help a civilian who's interested in fasting without losing strength. Then after the fast, you'll be as strong or stronger, and you'll be able to commence hypertrophy training at the same or higher weights, because you're as strong or stronger.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

So start with about 120 grams of protein a day. 160 grams is better but 120 grams is a good start.

And it has to be discounted, according to how well your body digests it, which means your age (because your body digests protein worse as you get older) and the source. Protein powders are processed in factories but they are digested well, so you don't have to discount them, but for instance meats like chicken fish and beef and other seafood, the discount is like 0.9, because they're really easy to digest, and then there's grains and legumes and nuts, and they're not really well digested, so you have to discount them like 0.5

Dairy like yogurt, milk, cottage cheese are really well digested, you basically don't have to discount dairy protein; and the same with eggs I think.

So combine together the protein discount with the protein concentration (roughly how many of the calories the food has is from protein? something like skinless chicken breast is like 80% of its calories are from protein, which is really good) to plan out how you're going to get in your daily protein.

Once you have that down, then you can figure out what you want to do for weight training. But the protein kind of sets the table for weight training to really help change your body. Eating enough protein a day, taking into account discounting, and spreading it out (don't eat all your protein all in one meal), enables you to take advantage of any inadvertent stimulus to grow muscularity you might already be doing during your days, like carrying heavy stuff or sprinting up stairs or whatever it might be.

There may be some risk to your kidneys or something else with boosting your protein intake in your diet, so obv don't take advice from strangers on the internet without checking with a trusted medical professional.

So I have to say it's seems your advice has been working out quite nicely for me so far. It's only been 2.5 weeks since I started to regulate my protein intake (120g of digested protein, mostly via chicken fillets because its easier to divide them) and I am starting to notice more definition. Even my upper abdominals are just barely starting to define, which is something I've never had before, even when I was younger.
My weight is still exactly the same. So I assume I have built at least some muscle and lost some fat during this time, which is exactly what I want right now.

 

[Nick M]

Your body has an insulin reaction when you consume protein. It is moderate compared to glucose, which is large. You don't need to consume any carbohydrate when better food is available at all times.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Your body has an insulin reaction when you consume protein. It is moderate compared to glucose, which is large. You don't need to consume any carbohydrate when better food is available at all times.

Ok buddy. It's been another 2.5 weeks and I am amazingly satisfied with the results. I haven't even been doing a super hard workout routine or taking creatine or anything like that. I've just been eating all protein and salad. Grains I have been eating only once or twice a week with like a sandwich or a pizza..thanks guys

 

[Nick M]

Ok buddy. It's been another 2.5 weeks and I am amazingly satisfied with the results.

I don't know what you are eating. And you don't have to share. Similarly, many people that don't fully eat right often get better because they improved from the absolute garbage that is the American diet. Even vegans, who go from Taco Bell and fast food to real food. And over time it isn't too good.

When you fast, HGH goes up. Just an FYI. Muscle and organs are the last thing your body consumes. And that is only because you are starving.

 

[Idolater]

So I have to say it's seems your advice has been working out quite nicely for me so far. It's only been 2.5 weeks since I started to regulate my protein intake (120g of digested protein, mostly via chicken fillets because its easier to divide them) and I am starting to notice more definition. Even my upper abdominals are just barely starting to define, which is something I've never had before, even when I was younger.
My weight is still exactly the same. So I assume I have built at least some muscle and lost some fat during this time, which is exactly what I want right now.

Here are some good vegetables to eat with your chicken:

Spinach
Kale
Collard greens
Onions
Garlic
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Asparagus
Brussels sprouts
Cabbage
Carrots
Beets

These are all fairly low carb (the lowest are the spinach, kale and cauliflower), and most of them have pretty good fiber too, to keep you regular.

Incidentally, just for grins, here's a caloric determination of eating two LBS (raw, uncooked¹) chicken breast with a couple servings of these vegetables:

Two LBS of chicken breast:
960 calories
200 grams protein (180 grams digestible, available protein)

Two servings of vegetables from the above list (average):
85 calories
6 grams protein (3 grams digestible, available protein)

For comparison here's four servings of the highest calorie vegetables instead (mixture of onions and collard greens):
254 calories
14 grams protein (7 grams digestible, available protein)

Add c. 600 calories of a fat for flavor (mayo, sour cream, creamy salad dressing, gravy, etc.).

Total:
960 + 85 + 600 = 1645 calories
180 + 3 = 183 grams digestible, available protein

Worst case (four servings of the highest calories vegetables):
960 + 254 + 600 = 1814 calories
180 + 7 = 187 grams digestible, available protein

For many people, 1814 calories is a caloric deficit, and 1645 calories is a good-sized caloric deficit.


¹ obv cook chicken before eating!

 

[Idolater]

... fat for flavor (mayo, sour cream, creamy salad dressing, gravy, etc.).

Don't forget about butter too! 600 calories of butter is three-quarters of a stick of butter, per day.

Total:
960 + 85 + 600 = 1645 calories
180 + 3 = 183 grams digestible, available protein

Worst case (four servings of the highest calories vegetables):

Worst case because vegetables are disgusting compared to most foods. You really have to stretch that butter if you eat four servings of these vegetables a day with your chicken.

960 + 254 + 600 = 1814 calories
180 + 7 = 187 grams digestible, available protein

187 grams of protein is a ton of protein, even if you're 300 LBS, that's going to be a fantastic start to your diet.

For many people, 1814 calories is a caloric deficit, and 1645 calories is a good-sized caloric deficit.


¹ obv cook chicken before eating!

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Don't forget about butter too! 600 calories of butter is three-quarters of a stick of butter, per day.



Worst case because vegetables are disgusting compared to most foods. You really have to stretch that butter if you eat four servings of these vegetables a day with your chicken.

Yeah you are right about the butter. I'm not much of a veggie guy. Most of my veggie intake has been via vegetable juice. Recently I started to get a bit more creative with my chicken and started to make like a "Chicken and Spinach Alfredo" without the cream and pasta, if that makes any sense.
It drives my wife nuts sometimes but she IS happy with the results so far.

187 grams of protein is a ton of protein, even if you're 300 LBS, that's going to be a fantastic start to your diet.

That's probably close to what I'm taking each day.

I guess egg protein is about 97% digestable at 13 grams per egg. I normally snack on 3-5 boiled eggs per day in between chicken that's an extra 38-63 grams
I'm also doing a 100g protein shake every other day after a workout.
All of this is on top of my 120+g staple of daily chicken proteins.

That's about it. I have no idea how many calories that is. It would be interesting to know. I suspect it's probably not that much, because It doesn't feel like forced feeding. I guess I will figure it out later. It seems I have gained abut 2 kilos in the last 6 weeks. But my beer gut is going away. (I used to drink a lot of beer) Strength gains have not been that much. But my workouts have only been at what I would call a beginner lever. I'll probably start doing heavier workouts now for the next weeks. Maybe more weight and less reps.

 

[Nick M]

I guess egg protein is about 97% digestable at 13 grams per egg. I normally snack on 3-5 boiled eggs per day in between chicken that's an extra 38-63 grams

Have you seen what happens to vitamins when the food is full cooked or high heat for extended times? They are gone. Eat a runny yoke for best nutrition. I learned about it with vegetables. That is the vitamin portion, not the protein.

 

[Nick M]

UFC Dana White. Fasting and a high fat, low carb diet.

 

[Nick M]

Thomas DeLauer, same thing. He has a youtube channel where he covers the science of why for many things. Another promoter of high fat, low carb, and fasting. He will also tell you about taking in carbs for the insulin reaction in a positive way.

 

[Nick M]

Joe Rogan's turn. I think he worked with Gary Brecka. It was him or White. Brecka was talking about it in one of his presentations.

 

[Nick M]

Dana White after a 7 day fast.

 

[Idolater]

View attachment 13241

Dana White after a 7 day fast.

Incredibly important to note that after a seven day fast you'll lose a lot of weight on the bathroom scale. Here's why. Roughly one third of it is fat, hooray. Roughly one third of it is glycogen, which depleted from your muscles and liver, and the water associated with that glycogen. This will return once you start eating carbs again, the first thing the body does with carbs is not store them as fat, but it replenishes diminished glycogen reserves, and you take on that associated water as well. So that part's coming back when you break the fast.

And lastly, roughly one third of it is lost muscularity. Your body doesn't ever stop needing protein, and since the body doesn't properly store protein, unlike it does with carbs and fat, it will eat itself alive of muscle to get that protein that it needs. So after a fast just bear it all in mind. Don't trust the bathroom scale without full knowledge of what's really going on.

The muscularity is NOT coming back, not unless you weight train while eating sufficient protein.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

View attachment 13239Thomas DeLauer, same thing. He has a youtube channel where he covers the science of why for many things. Another promoter of high fat, low carb, and fasting. He will also tell you about taking in carbs for the insulin reaction in a positive way.

That's cool. I have no idea about insulin. I'll check it out. I've come down with a respiratory infection and these meds have really been knocking me out. So I've been kind backsliding these last days. But I am more determined then ever to get back into this as soon as I am feeling better. I am NOT going to be walking around the beach, looking like a Homer Simpson bowling ball pin again this summer!

 

[Nick M]

I have no idea about insulin.

You can't check places like the American Heart Association, CDC, Cleveland Clinic or others. The only thing they say about insulin is take a prescription drug. If you have a serious defect and don't make any, that is different. If you are lifting now you probably know the term triglycerides. That is stored fat. It is glucose (glyceride) in a re-arranged form for storage. We have a hormone that breaks it up for use and energy. It is called hormone sensitive lipase. It is blocked by insulin. Your body will not release the enzyme for fat burning with insulin being secreted. Under no circumstances. It is triggered by high intensity exercise. If you don't eat, and have no fat, you will "fall out" while doing HIIT. Just know how it all works. And glucose is converted into fat by insulin. Fat is not stored as fat. Beef tallow doesn't merge with our fat. Getting big and cut is actually a science. I would say Thomas DeLauer for that information. He won't be far from Idolator in terms of what to do.

View attachment 12888



View attachment 12889


View attachment 12890

 

[Idolater]

Getting big and cut is actually a science. I would say Thomas DeLauer for that information. He won't be far from Idolator in terms of what to do.

He is very pleasant. I haven't found all the good ones yet, Coach Rippetoe is good, Zack Telander (that guy's amazing), Dr. Mike (not going to advertise Dr. Mike's surname, not because I'm racist, but because he's verbally raunchy, whereas someone like Telander, Rippetoe, and Mitchell Hooper swear, sure, but they're not raunchy, and Dr. Mike is, so you're going to have to go look up Dr. Mike yourself, sorry) and House of Hypertrophy are good for the different sports involving weight training. There's strength training (power lifting and strong man), bodybuilding, and ballistic events (Olympic or Oly weightlifting).

===
For something particularly lifting & fasting related, today I did a stiff legged touch-and-go deadlift with a weight which today was my two rep max, or 2RM. But last week, it was my 4RM. So I'm weaker. But, I see that I'm down two LBS in the last week too (I'm aggressively dieting rn, in a cut). So I'm probably weaker because I lost two LBS of body fat, and that caloric deficit made me weaker—makes sense.

But it doesn't make sense. I established, that I can get stronger even when I'm water fasting. I can not only retain and preserve peak strength (anytime you're dealing with a 2RM or a 4RM you're in the vicinity of your peak strength) during water fasting regimen, but I can get stronger. So if that is true, then eating a caloric deficit cannot possibly weaken me. Right?

I'm thinking not. So therefore, why am I weaker this week, why did my 4RM become my 2RM? I could do it four times last week, now only two today. Why? It's either sleep, or I'm not fully recovered from my last weight training session which was a few days ago. It's not impossible that I'm not fully recovered. I added more volume last session, and so maybe that pushed it too far, too much to recover and restore, in too few rest days. So based on this, maybe my next session is at higher volume, but then the subsequent session, cut back to my prior volume /no. of sets.

Then hopefully next week I get this same weight, which I'll again have on the barbell, to bounce from my 2RM to my 4RM or hopefully all the way to my 5RM. So that's my plan.

The reason for this thread is to be able to troubleshoot any losses in strength, whether you're fasting or not, because fasting, at least water fasting, itself does not diminish your peak strength, but it does reduce your capacity to weight train with lighter weights (your 5RM and lighter, you can't do as many reps as when you're eating, especially if you're eating at caloric balance, and even more especially if you're eating at caloric surplus). Which makes sense since it's cutting into your muscle, particularly your myofibrils, which are the things in your muscle cells that grow larger, when [your] muscles grow larger, and so they're also, perfectly reversibly, shrinking when your muscles shrink. They can go back and forth. And so when your body needs more protein—and it always needs more protein—but you're water fasting, it will deplete your myofibrils from your muscle cells to get that protein. If the body runs out of protein the body dies, trust the science on this one. You either run out of protein and you die, or you run out of energy and you die, those are the two ways you die of starvation, and water fasting is the beginning of the starvation process, it's like weight training, in that you're imposing some hard work, voluntarily.