themuzicman
Well-known member
Numerology is just something to LOL at.
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Numerology is just something to LOL at.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why would you use "Jewish culture" to support your views, especially since it was those in that culture that refused to believe that the Lord Jesus is their promised Messaih?
themuzicman
Well-known member
I'm not. I'm saying that using "Elohim" to support any idea of trinity ignores the writers of the Old Testament, who would have balked at the idea of trinity.
I am trinitarian, but it needs to be supported with good exegesis, not bad.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I can only rely on what the Scriptures reveal and my beliefs are not dependent on what others might have believed.
In the Bible one of the names of the One God is 'Elohiym, and that name is a "plural" noun. That name is used in the following verses:
"And God ('Elohiym) said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness...And God ('Elohiym) made man, according to the image of God he made him" (Gen.1:26,27).
We can see the same thing here:
"Then the LORD God ('Elohiym) said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil..." (Gen.3:22).
Whom do you say that the plural pronouns refer?
Thanks!
themuzicman
Well-known member
That's an excellent question. Do you suppose the idea of plural indicating singular greatness might have struck again?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you always answer a question by asking a question?
themuzicman
Well-known member
Do you think I should? :banana:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What do you think? :banana:
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
No we don't, because GOD IS ONE.
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.
"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.
'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.
The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.
And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.
And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 Jesus has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks Jesus what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and Jesus answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians. Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?
For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshippers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe to Jesus: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:
All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)
Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…
Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;
Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.
Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.
But honour to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:
New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.
New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.
Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;
Nowhere does the Bible say that.
What the Bible says over and over, is that GOD IS ONE:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"
"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version
"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version
"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version
"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version
"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message
"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version
"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version
"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version
"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation
"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.
"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.
"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible
So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.
"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version
"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version
"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
Greetings Elia,
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your clear and thorough exposition of God is one.
You have given a good explanation of the concept of the angels representing God and working on His behalf. Your example helps to understand the word “us” as God calling upon the angels to help in the creation of man.
My only objection to your post is that you almost assume that all Christians are Trinitarians. I believe it was the angels that helped God in the creation. I also believe that there is One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Trinity is a "compound unity," a concept which is spoken of here:
"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).
This concept is above the reasoning of our finite minds and that is why Paul calls it a "mystery." Nevertheless, the concept of "compound unity" is found in the Bible and that same concept applies to the Godhead.
The Bible reveals that there is One God in three Divine Persons. That is why we read of the "name" (singular) of God here:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).
Prizebeatz1
New member
From the eyes of the personality there is division. From the spirit there is unity.
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We don't need your pantheistic new age mumbo jumbo on the Christian site.
Prizebeatz1
New member
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
Yes you do. You're just mad because you're wrong and too proud to admit it.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
Yes you do. You're just mad because you're wrong and too proud to admit it.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
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Body part
Thanks for admitting that your are advocating pantheistic new age mumbo jumbo.
I hope that you come to the truth some day.
Prizebeatz1
New member
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
Trying to degrade the truth by calling it names is something a child would do. Your personality's pride is wounded and is trying to compensate for lack of self-worth by attacking what it feels is causing its pain. Might as well attack yourself for buying into a system that secretly convinces you of your worthlessness.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
Trying to degrade the truth by calling it names is something a child would do. Your personality's pride is wounded and is trying to compensate for lack of self-worth by attacking what it feels is causing its pain. Might as well attack yourself for buying into a system that secretly convinces you of your worthlessness.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.
'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.
The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.
And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.
And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 Jesus has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks Jesus what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and Jesus answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians. Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?
For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshippers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe to Jesus: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:
All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)
Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…
Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;
Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.
Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.
But honour to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:
New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.
New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.
Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;
Right Divider
Body part
Properly and clearly identifying ERROR is not childish in the least. It is the mature thing to do.
Nope. Don't try to project your problems on me.
:rotfl:
Prizebeatz1
New member
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
There is no error in what is infinite and eternal. The truth is unconditional unlike your self-worth which depends on how well you can hold on to your beliefs. That need to hold on is evidence of your lack of self-worth. If you were to let go you believe you would turn into nothing and you judge that as worthless because you don't know when to quit judging. It's the opposite. Luke 17:33.
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"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"
There is no error in what is infinite and eternal. The truth is unconditional unlike your self-worth which depends on how well you can hold on to your beliefs. That need to hold on is evidence of your lack of self-worth. If you were to let go you believe you would turn into nothing and you judge that as worthless because you don't know when to quit judging. It's the opposite. Luke 17:33.
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Body part
I couldn't agree more; that it God.
You're the one that seems to be overly concerned with self-worth. I don't care.
My worth is in the LORD Jesus Christ.