Learning Torah

[aikido7]

Judaism predates Christianity. Even the early church following Yeshua's ascension was entirely Jewish. But with the expectation that the Messiah would come having been present within Judaism, it was only later that some believers and followers, disciples really, were called Christian. Before this there were only followers of the way.

I posit that Christianity neither was nor is a new religion.

And I have also concluded that today's version of Christianity is clearly something Jesus would have rejected.

In fact, the irony is that his message was to the House of Israel and he thought Gentiles were "dogs" and mocked their praying style.
Now he is worshiped by Gentiles and put on a divine pedestal, even though Jesus never said he was divine or God.

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I have to bracket the Gospel of John, which is theology and not history. John's Jesus says both "The Father is greater than I" and "I and the Father are One."

Jesus's turn about to "declare the gospel to all nations" was added to the text by those influenced by Paul's outreach to "the nations" 30 years after the crucifixion.

 

[meshak]

Given Christian origins, Judaism must be studied--even a little.

Judaism is observing Moses' law.

It is all in OT.

 

[aikido7]

Judaism is observing Moses' law.

It is all in OT.

I believe you are right. However, if you were to ask Jesus he would tell you he is observing Moses's law as well. But at the same time he was pushing the envelope of Jewish teachings to an extent never before done in all of history.

Moses said adultery was forbidden. Jesus taught that even thinking about it was forbidden. And he also came up with the notion of "loving your enemies." No one in history had ever taught such a scandalous idea.

 

[Jacob]

The new covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

 

[meshak]

I believe you are right. However, if you were to ask Jesus he would tell you he is observing Moses's law as well. But at the same time he was pushing the envelope of Jewish teachings to an extent never before done in all of history.

Moses said adultery was forbidden. Jesus taught that even thinking about it was forbidden. And he also came up with the notion of "loving your enemies." No one in history had ever taught such a scandalous idea.

Moses had tons of laws that we cannot keep up.

Jesus made it simple.

 

[aikido7]

The new covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

If you could concisely interpret the book on the Jewish Gospel of John, how would you do it?

What are the "take-aways" you got from the book?

 

[Jacob]

The term Biblical Judaism is often applied to Jesus' day.

The nation of Israel was presently observing the Law of Moses, which was what God had given them years earlier when He made a covenant with them.

The prophet Jeremiah prophesied after the Law of Moses was established for Israel, which followed the exodus from Egypt, involving the time in the wilderness and when they had entered the Promised Land (the land of Israel).

Before Jesus (Yeshua) and the coming of the new covenant, both the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah has been exiled, and Judah had returned from Babylonian captivity including the Jerusalem wall and temple being rebuilt.

 

[Jacob]

If you could concisely interpret the book on the Jewish Gospel of John, how would you do it?

What are the "take-aways" you got from the book?

I recommend reading The Jewish Gospel of John by Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg.

He addresses misconceptions about John's gospel, for both Jewish and Gentile audiences.

 

[fzappa13]

Jesus did not bring, found, or start a new religion.

Matthew can be found in Hebrew as well as in Greek. I have listened to the Hebrew, though I am still learning Hebrew.

I'm intrigued by the notion but I can see a pitfall here ... Hebrew to Greek to Hebrew? I mean, Jews wrote the NT but there is no extant original Hebrew text of the NT that I am aware of so ...

 

[Jacob]

I'm intrigued by the notion but I can see a pitfall here ... Hebrew to Greek to Hebrew? I mean, Jews wrote the NT but there is no extant original Hebrew text of the NT that I am aware of so ...

I don't know Greek and I am only learning Hebrew.

 

[fzappa13]

I don't know Greek and I am only learning Hebrew.

Well, let us hope you aren't reading an N.T. text that was spoken by Hebrews, translated to Greek, then to English, and then back to Hebrew. You know what happens when when you hear of a tale third hand.

 

[Jacob]

Well, let us hope you aren't reading an N.T. text that was spoken by Hebrews, translated to Greek, then to English, and then back to Hebrew. You know what happens when when you hear of a tale third hand.

Somebody mentioned Greek. I don't know Greek.

 

[aikido7]

I recommend reading The Jewish Gospel of John by Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg.

He addresses misconceptions about John's gospel, for both Jewish and Gentile audiences.

What are a few of these misconceptions that you learned? It's just at this point I probably won't buy the book, but it if is reviewed on Amazon I might read all the reviews.

I already had to give away hundreds of books on Jesus to be able to move into the smaller place we are living in now. I only kept a little less than 100 and I try to watch my book-buying urges these days.

Unless the book seems like it might totally rip the rug out from under me, I probably won't consider reading it at all.

 

[aikido7]

To whomever, most biblical scholars work off of the LXX--the first Greek translation of the gospels.

I am not judging them right or wrong. I am only sharing historical fact that I have learned is true.

 

[Jacob]

What are a few of these misconceptions that you learned? It's just at this point I probably won't buy the book, but it if is reviewed on Amazon I might read all the reviews.

I already had to give away hundreds of books on Jesus to be able to move into the smaller place we are living in now. I only kept a little less than 100 and I try to watch my book-buying urges these days.

Unless the book seems like it might totally rip the rug out from under me, I probably won't consider reading it at all.

I encourage you to check out the reviews.

If you have read the gospel of John you either approved of it or found something you wrestled with. He addresses that for which people might object. So it isn't just one thing.

 

[Jacob]

To whomever, most biblical scholars work off of the LXX--the first Greek translation of the gospels.

I am not judging them right or wrong. I am only sharing historical fact that I have learned is true.

Do you believe that is what the Septuagint is?

Anyhow, this thread is about Torah. In this it makes sense to talk about Hebrew.

The entire Bible is important. But I think the only Greek word I know (at least for certain, that is) is the word translated into English as Deity or God. Even in this I don't know for sure that I would know what I am talking about.

 

[aikido7]

Do you believe that is what the Septuagint is?

Anyhow, this thread is about Torah. In this it makes sense to talk about Hebrew.

The entire Bible is important. But I think the only Greek word I know (at least for certain, that is) is the word translated into English as Deity or God. Even in this I don't know for sure that I would know what I am talking about.

You are absolutely right. I have changed the context of your original thread. Out of ignorance, but nevertheless I was unwillingly sowing confusion.

I think I will try to gracefully bow out....

Thanks for your replies, though. Seriously.

 

[Jacob]

You are absolutely right. I have changed the context of your original thread. Out of ignorance, but nevertheless I was unwillingly sowing confusion.

I think I will try to gracefully bow out....

Thanks for your replies, though. Seriously.

We have discussed both Matthew and John here in this thread, as they pertain to Hebrew or Jewish thinking from what I know. I'm not sure how Greek came into the conversation.

I am thankful I was able to listen to the gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, and able to read the book about the Jewish Gospel of John (The gospel of John is a Jewish book, it is not anti-Semitic as some might think).

 

[fzappa13]

Somebody mentioned Greek. I don't know Greek.

It's a form of Greek no longer spoken called Koine Greek.

 

[Jacob]

I'm intrigued by the notion but I can see a pitfall here ... Hebrew to Greek to Hebrew? I mean, Jews wrote the NT but there is no extant original Hebrew text of the NT that I am aware of so ...

Shalom.

I do not know that the entire or any of the New Testament Scriptures, the writings called New Testament (Matthew to Revelation whether you call them that or not), were originally written in Hebrew (found or existent or not)).

Shalom.

Jacob