Law: God's Law and Man's Law.

[PureX]

If I were a Jew, I suppose I would be beholding to at least some ancient Judaic religious laws and traditions. But as I am not a Jew, I am not beholding to any Jewish laws or traditions, ancient or otherwise. And even Jews, themselves, agree with this observation.

I don't know why so many modern day Christians think they are supposed to believe and follow ancient Jewish proclamations, laws, and traditions because as far as I know, and from what they say, they are not Jewish. I guess they just like all that religious dogma. I, however, am glad to be free of it.

God's laws are written into the fabric of existence. How could it be otherwise? Yet we humans can't always recognize them. So we invent religions to help us recognize God's will within this mystery of being that we find ourselves. And that's all well and good, until we begin to confuse our religions with God. And then we start imagining that adherence to our religious dogma is the equivalent of obedience to God. Because when that happens, we have in effect made our selves out to be the definers and imposers of God's will.

And that kind of arrogance never turns out well, for us.

 

[jamie]

I understand that this is what you are saying / believe.

Yes, scripture says it is a perfect law.

 

[Jacob]

If I were a Jew, I suppose I would be beholding to at least some ancient Judaic religious laws and traditions. But as I am not a Jew, I am not beholding to any Jewish laws or traditions, ancient or otherwise. And even Jews, themselves, agree with this observation.

I don't know why so many modern day Christians think they are supposed to believe and follow ancient Jewish proclamations, laws, and traditions because as far as I know, and from what they say, they are not Jewish. I guess they just like all that religious dogma. I, however, am glad to be free of it.

God's laws are written into the fabric of existence. How could it be otherwise? Yet we humans can't always recognize them. So we invent religions to help us recognize God's will within this mystery of being that we find ourselves. And that's all well and good, until we begin to confuse our religions with God. And then we start imagining that adherence to our religious dogma is the equivalent of obedience to God. Because when that happens, we have in effect made our selves out to be the definers and imposers of God's will.

And that kind of arrogance never turns out well, for us.

The Law of Moses, God's Law, given to the nation of Israel, does not change. Here can be discussion of old covenant law.

Gentiles are not under the Law (in that they were not born under the Law), but it is God's Law.

All mankind has the Noahide laws, and all Christians at minimum observe that which is found in Acts 15.

The question is if in the new covenant, old covenant law is obsolete or if it continues for the nation of Israel and all who abide by it.

 

[PureX]

The Law of Moses, God's Law, given to the nation of Israel, does not change. Here can be discussion of old covenant law.

Gentiles are not under the Law (in that they were not born under the Law), but it is God's Law.

All mankind has the Noahide laws, and all Christians at minimum observe that which is found in Acts 15.

The question is if in the new covenant, old covenant law is obsolete or if it continues for the nation of Israel and all who abide by it.

There are no laws but those that are written in our hearts, because compliance with laws that we don't believe in, or know to be true, is just pretense. If we believe in our religion, we should comply with it's laws. But if we find those laws contrary to the divine spirit within us, we should drop the religion, and disregard it's laws. Because the spirit within us transcends religious traditions, dogmas, and laws … so long as that spirit is based on the love God through the love of each other.

 

[Jacob]

There are no laws but those that are written in our hearts, because compliance with laws that we don't believe in, or know to be true, is just pretense. If we believe in our religion, we should comply with it's laws. But if we find those laws contrary to the divine spirit within us, we should drop the religion, and disregard it's laws. Because the spirit within us transcends religious traditions, dogmas, and laws … so long as that spirit is based on the love God through the love of each other.

The old covenant is God's Law and the new covenant is not like the old. But we are talking about the same God, the one and only true God, the God of the Jews (Israel) and the Gentiles (Nations).

 

[PureX]

The old covenant is God's Law and the new covenant is not like the old. But we are talking about the same God, the one and only true God, the God of the Jews (Israel) and the Gentiles (Nations).

You are talking about God as depicted and understood by a specific religious sect thousands of years ago, in a very different place and culture from our own. There is no logical reason that I can think of why I should need or want to use their depiction and understanding of God as my own. Clearly, you are choosing to do so, and that's your prerogative. But it makes no sense to me at all. I have read their texts and although I do find some wisdom there regarding human nature relative to divine ideals, these insights are not compelling enough for me to need or want to adopt their archaic religion.

 

[Jacob]

You are talking about God as depicted and understood by a specific religious sect thousands of years ago, in a very different place and culture from our own. There is no logical reason that I can think of why I should need or want to use their depiction and understanding of God as my own. Clearly, you are choosing to do so, and that's your prerogative. But it makes no sense to me at all. I have read their texts and although I do find some wisdom there regarding human nature relative to divine ideals, these insights are not compelling enough for me to need or want to adopt their archaic religion.

There is the Torah and the rest of the TaNaKh, the Hebrew scriptures.

The New Testament writings are a continuation, and do tell of when the new covenant came to be.

I accept it all. I would encourage you to read about Jesus in the first four books of the New Testament, the gospels. These are four separate gospel accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah, His death, burial, and resurrection.

The book of Romans explains the gospel of salvation in a logical and straightforward way.

 

[Robert Pate]

I am for God's Law. Here I am proposing Man's Law can be included in the discussion about observing or obeying the law.

We may need to define these. What is God's Law? What is Man's Law?

Is God's Law the Law of Moses? Of course the Law of Moses is God's Law. Is that all there is to God's Law? Is God's Law more than the Law of Moses? Is God's Law ever thought of as different from the Law of Moses? Two things can be discussed. What is God's Law in light of the gospel (for example, in the new covenant, whether Jew or Gentile)? And, what aspects of the Law should be studied or observed?

What is Man's Law? The Law of Moses is not Man's Law. Does Man's Law include any law that man makes (that is in any way not considered the Law of God)? We are to submit to the governing authorities. Does this make Man's Law the Law for the nation in which we live (unless that nation observes God's Law)? Or, is it broader than that (such as all the nations apart from Israel)?

I live in the United States of America, as a citizen, and I love Torah, God's Law, the nation of Israel, the Hebrew Bible (the TaNaKh), and the Christian Bible (as a Christian). I do not believe it would be correct to assume I am a Zionist. I am a former dispensationslist, and I love God's Law. Without it we not only don't know what sin is, we either don't know how to live unless it is possible to live by the Holy Spirit apart from the law and commands (only option is IF THIS IS POSSIBLE) probably specifically relating to the Law of Moses (except for me the jury is still out on this as I love God's Law, the Law of Moses, as it came to the nation of Israel from God and also through the prophet Moses) or we don't have the proper perspective on how we should live and what those things are that God calls good.

For example, people who observe old covenant law or new covenant law (what is new covenant law then if people observe it?) know that we are to love God and love our neighbor. Love for your fellow man is a part of love for God, in that you do not love God if you forsake love for your neighbor or fellow man. My understanding is that this is law and taught by Jesus, within the context of what Jesus taught, (and) Torah, and the rest of the scriptures of both the Hebrew and Christian Bibles.

Do you understand God's love for you?

Do you observe any or no law or laws?

According to Paul you are a minister of death.

"Who has made us able ministers of the New Testament; NOT of the letter (The Law) but of the Spirit: for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.

 

[Jacob]

According to Paul you are a minister of death.

"Who has made us able ministers of the New Testament; NOT of the letter (The Law) but of the Spirit: for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.

One, I am not the Law.

Two, not everyone is in the new covenant.

Three, the Law is eternal as I understand it.

Four, the Law can be used in evangelism.

Five, no one is saved by the Law.

Six, Salvation is by grace through faith.

Seven, you don't need to share the Law (of Moses) when you share the gospel, but you are not to be without the law of God, the law of Christ, even among those without the law (though you can are or do minister God's grace, as always, in ministering to those without the law).

 

[Bradley D]

The law was made to make us aware of sin. Christ died upon the cross so His blood could cleanse of believers of sin. I have the Holy Spirit to convict of me of sin/help me live rightly. A sin of the mind is a sin. I will not believe anyone who tells me they never sin.

 

[Jacob]

The law was made to make us aware of sin. Christ died upon the cross so His blood could cleanse of believers of sin. I have the Holy Spirit to convict of me of sin/help me live rightly. A sin of the mind is a sin. I will not believe anyone who tells me they never sin.

The law is not about never sinning. It is about obeying God, knowing if you have sinned, and doing what you need to do to make things right if you can.

 

[PureX]

There is the Torah and the rest of the TaNaKh, the Hebrew scriptures.

The New Testament writings are a continuation, and do tell of when the new covenant came to be.

I accept it all. I would encourage you to read about Jesus in the first four books of the New Testament, the gospels. These are four separate gospel accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus the Messiah, His death, burial, and resurrection.

The book of Romans explains the gospel of salvation in a logical and straightforward way.

I have read all of these, but I find no logical reason to read them as if God had written them. I read them as if they were written by (mostly) Jews living 2,000 years ago, for other Jews living in that same time and place in history.

Can you explain to me why you think modern humans should read them any differently?

 

[Jacob]

I have read all of these, but I find no logical reason to read them as if God had written them. I read them as if they were written by (mostly) Jews living 2,000 years ago, for other Jews living in that same time and place in history.

Can you explain to me why you think modern humans should read them any differently?

The Bible, first the TaNaKh (the Hebrew Bible), was inspired by God. So God directed the writers, authors. That is not the same as God writing the Bible. God did write the Ten Commandments, on tablets of stone.

See 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB.

 

[Jacob]

Here are the scriptures in support of Christ commanding us to love one another.

John 13:34 NASB - 34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 15:12 NASB - 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NASB - 17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

 

[Jacob]

What can we say is the difference between the way we live and what the Law states? Are Christians to observe God's Law? What is God's Law? Can the Law of Moses be used in Evangelism? Can a person instruct someone else in regard to any command found in the Law? Is the Law only to show sin in a person? Is it possible to keep any one law? Can the Law be spoken of as that which is to be observed and obeyed? Does it make a difference if a person is of Israel, a Jew, Jewish, or not? Do some people observe more or less of the Law? Is it good to do better at obeying God's Law? Can anyone today say they observe God's Law? Is it impossible to observe the Law? Do new covenant believers observe the Law? Is the Law of Moses God's Law? Is the law of Christ God's Law? Is there such a thing as new covenant law? Does anyone observe something called new covenant law? How can we minister to those without the law? We are not without the law, either in evangelism or in regard to what we do and how we obey God and His Law or God and Christ.

Do believers obey God's Law? Is it possible to be saved without obeying God or without seeing the need to obey God? Can a person come to faith and then obey God? Is faith obedience to God?