Law: God's Law and Man's Law.

[Jacob]

I am for God's Law. Here I am proposing Man's Law can be included in the discussion about observing or obeying the law.

We may need to define these. What is God's Law? What is Man's Law?

Is God's Law the Law of Moses? Of course the Law of Moses is God's Law. Is that all there is to God's Law? Is God's Law more than the Law of Moses? Is God's Law ever thought of as different from the Law of Moses? Two things can be discussed. What is God's Law in light of the gospel (for example, in the new covenant, whether Jew or Gentile)? And, what aspects of the Law should be studied or observed?

What is Man's Law? The Law of Moses is not Man's Law. Does Man's Law include any law that man makes (that is in any way not considered the Law of God)? We are to submit to the governing authorities. Does this make Man's Law the Law for the nation in which we live (unless that nation observes God's Law)? Or, is it broader than that (such as all the nations apart from Israel)?

I live in the United States of America, as a citizen, and I love Torah, God's Law, the nation of Israel, the Hebrew Bible (the TaNaKh), and the Christian Bible (as a Christian). I do not believe it would be correct to assume I am a Zionist. I am a former dispensationslist, and I love God's Law. Without it we not only don't know what sin is, we either don't know how to live unless it is possible to live by the Holy Spirit apart from the law and commands (only option is IF THIS IS POSSIBLE) probably specifically relating to the Law of Moses (except for me the jury is still out on this as I love God's Law, the Law of Moses, as it came to the nation of Israel from God and also through the prophet Moses) or we don't have the proper perspective on how we should live and what those things are that God calls good.

For example, people who observe old covenant law or new covenant law (what is new covenant law then if people observe it?) know that we are to love God and love our neighbor. Love for your fellow man is a part of love for God, in that you do not love God if you forsake love for your neighbor or fellow man. My understanding is that this is law and taught by Jesus, within the context of what Jesus taught, (and) Torah, and the rest of the scriptures of both the Hebrew and Christian Bibles.

Do you understand God's love for you?

Do you observe any or no law or laws?

 

[Jacob]

For discussion on New Covenant Law go here -> LINK: New Covenant Law.

 

[keypurr]

I believe that the TEN are God's Laws. The other 600+ are the laws of Moses. The Law of Moses was hung on the cross, the TEN are for all time.

 

[Jacob]

I believe that the TEN are God's Laws. The other 600+ are the laws of Moses. The Law of Moses was hung on the cross, the TEN are for all time.

You speak well of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Bradley D]

God's Law is truth. Man's law not based on God's Law are subject to change.

 

[jamie]

Is God's Law the Law of Moses? Of course the Law of Moses is God's Law.

The Law of Moses was given to whom and for whom?

For example, let's say for the sake of discussion that the State of California has a code of law. Is that law code for every person world wide or do California laws apply only to people within the State of California?

 

[Jacob]

God's Law is truth. Man's law not based on God's Law are subject to change.

God's Law is truth.

Can you explain?

Do you believe you are to obey Man's law? I see Man's law as in keeping with God's Law. We are to be subject to the governing authorities.

Can we say that Man's Law is based on God's Law?

I don't know what you mean by your second statement.

 

[Jacob]

The Law of Moses was given to whom and for whom?

The Law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel.

Romans 3:19 NASB - 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

For example, let's say for the sake of discussion that the State of California has a code of law. Is that law code for every person world wide or do California laws apply only to people within the State of California?

California laws apply to people within the State of California, as you are asking about state law or state laws. I do not live in California.

I do live in Washington State. Therefore, Washington State laws apply to me.

I believe state laws apply to people in different ways. Meaning, being a resident of Washington State does not mean California laws never apply to me. In general I believe that California laws would apply to me in California if I am ever again in California. I was born in Washington State and I have grown up in Washington State and I have spent most of my time in Washington State. California does not border Washington State. I am a resident of Washington State.

I also live in the United States of America, so I am subject to the laws of the United States of America.

 

[Bradley D]

God's Law is truth.

Can you explain?

Do you believe you are to obey Man's law? I see Man's law as in keeping with God's Law. We are to be subject to the governing authorities.

Can we say that Man's Law is based on God's Law?

I don't know what you mean by your second statement.

Man's law says homosexuals can get married. That is not God's law. Man's law says that the unborn are not human beings. That is not God's law. Any law that goes against scripture is not God's law. I believe the Bible says there a need for government. People do not get along to well on their own. However, that does not mean all government laws are right/God fearing.

 

[Jacob]

Man's law says homosexuals can get married. That is not God's law. Man's law says that the unborn are not human beings. That is not God's law. Any law that goes against scripture is not God's law. I believe the Bible says there a need for government. People do not get along to well on their own. However, that does not mean all government laws are right/God fearing.

Well, we shouldn't harm homosexuals or the unborn. But God's law is not for abortion and neither is it for homosexuality. So, we know what God's Law says. Then it comes down to how we treat others. Sin can be forgiven, but never is sin justified. There is never a license to sin, even with grace.

I'm not sure about your view of man's law, but if that is your understanding then you can always know you have God's Law to live by. Do you know that Christians are not under the Law but are under grace? How do Christians obey God? In what way or manner?

This raises questions about what God allows or permit, but God doesn't allow sin and doesn't permit sin. So these two words are somewhat ambiguous. Our action should not be sinful or sin. God does not want us to sin, and He has commanded us as to what is right.

Does M/man's L/law come from and is it supported by God's Law? From whence or where is it derived?

Is it possible to create a law that is not of God? Maybe so. But maybe we know better by God's Law which has to be in some way better than anything man can come up with.

This is why I believe nations should live and be governed by God's Law, and if there is something that can be called a new covenant court or law then I would think that in the new covenant that would be preferred.

Does this mean forgiveness, or does it mean justice?

There will come a day when everything will come into account. Every idle word will be judged. So we had better live right and confess any sin to God now. Each and every one of us can pray for others. But if God is the judge what do we do... pray for forgiveness and that someone would understand the gospel?

What is a sin leading to death? Or, rather, sin not leading to death. This is New Testament scripture even!

1 John 5:16-17 NASB - 16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

James 5:16 NASB - 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Jude 1:23 NASB - 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Matthew 7:1 NASB - 1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

James 5:13-20 NASB - 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit. 19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

John 5:30 NASB - 30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 12:47 NASB - 47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[Jacob]

1 John 5:16-17 NASB - 16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

James 5:16 NASB - 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Jude 1:23 NASB - 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Matthew 7:1 NASB - 1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

James 5:13-20 NASB - 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit. 19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

John 5:30 NASB - 30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 12:47 NASB - 47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Leviticus 19:17-18 NASB - 17 'You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. 18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

 

[jamie]

I also live in the United States of America, so I am subject to the laws of the United States of America.

And Jews in Judea were subject to the Law of Moses until God abrogated the Mosaic ordinances.

You have never been subject to the Mosaic ordinances and you never will be subject to them.

 

[Jacob]

And Jews in Judea were subject to the Law of Moses until God abrogated the Mosaic ordinances.

You have never been subject to the Mosaic ordinances and you never will be subject to them.

I don't know why you are saying this.

Knowing that I have broken God's Law and am worthy of death makes me understand my need for Jesus to be my Lord and Savior. Without Jesus as my Savior I would not be saved. This does not mean I cannot die for my sin. People do die on account of sin, since Adam and Eve. But the Law shows us guilty. Are you saying this because Jesus already died for my sin and the sin of the whole world? Think propitiation. There is a verse somewhere.

My sin I sinned before the gospel was presented to me by one of my parents was that I lied to my parents by pretending to be asleep when they came in to check on me, knowing that the only way to receive the reward (if it was a reward, in any case I knew I was supposed to sleep first) they promised me for sleeping or taking a nap was to actually be asleep... but when the time came I confessed that I had lied and the gospel was presented to me.

Romans 3:19 NASB - 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

This verse from Romans was written after the Holy Spirit was poured out on both Jews and soon after (later) on Gentiles both following Jesus' ascension after His death, burial, and resurrection and appearing to many.

Would you say that then no one was under the Law? If then, why not now in this day and age almost 2000 years later?

If no one is subject to the Law of Moses, how can people either know they have sinned or are in need of saving?

And, shouldn't we obey God's Law?

 

[Eric h]

The whole of God's law hangs and depends on the greatest commandments, if we could truly live by these commandments, then we would not need any other laws.

But Europeans cannot live on God's two laws alone, we really love man's laws.

updated May 2015,
There are now more than 40,000 legal acts in the EU. There are also 15,000 Court verdicts and 62,000 international standards, all of which must be respected and obeyed by citizens and companies in the EU. http://en.euabc.com/word/2152


Apparently an average of around 3,500 laws have been passed every year for much of the last two decades. Of course I know all these laws off by heart, I will study intently, all the new laws written yesterday. Then I shall go out and probably break another thousand laws today, but hey, who cares?

The two greatest commandments are profound, they have a far greater meaning; than the hundred thousand European laws.

 

[jamie]

If no one is subject to the Law of Moses, how can people either know they have sinned or are in need of saving?

What is sin?

 

[Jacob]

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 NASB - 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[jamie]

1 John 3:4 NASB - 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Exactly, what if there was a law that said don't eat the fruit of a certain tree. If that law was violated, would that be sin?

That law was violated and it was sin.

If God gave a law through Moses for a certain group of people for a certain period of time and if someone in that group violated the law it would be sin.

If there was a NT law that said, "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" a violation of that law would be sin.

So what is the Law of Liberty?

 

[Jacob]

Exactly, what if there was a law that said don't eat the fruit of a certain tree. If that law was violated, would that be sin?

That law was violated and it was sin.

If God gave a law through Moses for a certain group of people for a certain period of time and if someone in that group violated the law it would be sin.

If there was a NT law that said, "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" a violation of that law would be sin.

So what is the Law of Liberty?

God's commands are to be observed not transgressed.

Is the Law for Israel and the world for a certain period of time?

The Law of Liberty is what?

 

[jamie]

The Law of Liberty is what?

It's what defines sin in the context of the NT.

 

[Jacob]

It's what defines sin in the context of the NT.

I understand that this is what you are saying / believe.