Judaism as nationality?

[annabenedetti]

NYT: President Trump will sign an executive order defining Judaism as a nationality, not just a religion, thus bolstering the Education Department's efforts to stamp out "Boycott Israel" movements on college campuses

Rabbi Emily Cohen‏ @ThatRabbiCohen
It is really, *really* frightening for us to be defined as a nationality. The trope of "dual loyalism" is classic antisemitism. It encourages people to view American Jews as professing greater loyalty to Israel than to the United States-- thereby making us untrustworthy.

 

[chair]

We Jews are a nation. "Judaism" is the religion of the Jews. A national religion- almost a tribal religion. It is not the other way around, i.e. "Jews are people who practice Judaism". I have no idea who Rabbi Emily Cohen is, but she's simply wrong.

 

[Ktoyou]

I do like her use of the word 'trope' though, as it suggest more than a freshmen English class.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For a Jew like Rabbi Emily Cohen to deny that the Jews should be identified by their nationality demonstrates that she either does not believe the OT Scriptures or that she is just plain ignorant of what the Scriptures say.

Gross stupidty!

 

[annabenedetti]

We Jews are a nation. "Judaism" is the religion of the Jews. A national religion- almost a tribal religion. It is not the other way around, i.e. "Jews are people who practice Judaism". I have no idea who Rabbi Emily Cohen is, but she's simply wrong.

What I'd read from American Jews speaking on the topic is that they see their nationality as American. I don't know a lot about this so I'd appreciate your input.

 

[chair]

What I'd read from American Jews speaking on the topic is that they see their nationality as American. I don't know a lot about this so I'd appreciate your input.

I think the confusion arises from the term "nation", which can mean a modern nation-state, like the United States, or a traditional tribal nation, like the Navajo Nation. You can be a Navajo American, or a Maori American or a Jewish American. Two different types of national identity.

 

[annabenedetti]

I think the confusion arises from the term "nation", which can mean a modern nation-state, like the United States, or a traditional tribal nation, like the Navajo Nation. You can be a Navajo American, or a Maori American or a Jewish American. Two different types of national identity.

It's not clear to me how Judaism as nationality is comparable to Navaho Nation. Can you help me out?

Navajo Nation
Tribe (Native American)
Tribal sovereignty in the United States

 

[quip]

Sounds like Trump being Trump again.....making policy based on vagaries and equivocations in a desperate effort to gain support.

 

[annabenedetti]

Sounds like Trump being Trump again.....making policy based on vagaries and equivocations in a desperate effort to gain support.

Just a wild guess here on where he's trying to garner support... let's see, maybe with... evangelicals?

After all, who was there for the lighting of the (early?) menorah candles?

John (Adolf Hitler was "a hunter, sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God’s will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel") Hagee.

Also there, Robert (Jews are going to Hell) Jeffress.

 

[chair]

It's not clear to me how Judaism as nationality is comparable to Navaho Nation. Can you help me out?

Navajo Nation
Tribe (Native American)
Tribal sovereignty in the United States

Maybe the Navajo was a poor choice, as it brings up all kinds of legal definitions in the US, and images of Indian reservations and the like. It is better if you think of the Navajo before they met Europeans. What made them a people?

Think about Jewish history. We started as a people, with Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The defining event in our history was the Exodus. The Torah (Hebrew Bible) was given to an existing people, the Israelites. The Bible and the "Law" weren't intended for everybody. they were specifically set up for the people of Israel. We have a long political history, linked with a particular land. We have some distinctly tribal customs, such as circumcision. We have our own language.

This is very different from Christianity, which is a religion. One becomes a Christian by accepting the Christian faith. One becomes a Jew by joining the Jewish people. (Yes, I know people often talk about "converting" to Judaism, as if it was a purely religious thing- but it's not.)

There have been attempts to paint Judaism as another religion. Like you can be "of the Jewish faith", just like you can be "of the Christian faith". It doesn't really work.

 

[annabenedetti]

Maybe the Navajo was a poor choice, as it brings up all kinds of legal definitions in the US, and images of Indian reservations and the like. It is better if you think of the Navajo before they met Europeans. What made them a people?

Think about Jewish history. We started as a people, with Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The defining event in our history was the Exodus. The Torah (Hebrew Bible) was given to an existing people, the Israelites. The Bible and the "Law" weren't intended for everybody. they were specifically set up for the people of Israel. We have a long political history, linked with a particular land. We have some distinctly tribal customs, such as circumcision. We have our own language.

This is very different from Christianity, which is a religion. One becomes a Christian by accepting the Christian faith. One becomes a Jew by joining the Jewish people. (Yes, I know people often talk about "converting" to Judaism, as if it was a purely religious thing- but it's not.)

There have been attempts to paint Judaism as another religion. Like you can be "of the Jewish faith", just like you can be "of the Christian faith". It doesn't really work.

I appreciate the information, thank you. I need to work towards understanding this more than I do right now.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Democrat Representative Ilhan Omar said that "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."

Even after making such hateful statements against the US's best friend in the Middle East the Democrat leadership just looked the other way!

That is because the Democrat Party is anti-semitic to the core!

Shameful!

 

[ok doser]

Democrat Representative Ilhan Omar said that "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."

Even after making such hateful statements against the US's best friend in the Middle East the Democrat leadership just looked the other way!

That is because the Democrat Party is anti-semitic to the core!

Shameful!

the republicans should run that as a clip on a loop, over and over - Omar's face saying "may Allah awaken the people"

 

[annabenedetti]

Democrat Representative Ilhan Omar said that "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."

And? She was clearly criticizing the Israeli government.

Even after making such hateful statements against the US's best friend in the Middle East the Democrat leadership just looked the other way!

She said it in 2012. She first ran for office in 2016, then 2018. lain:

That is because the Democrat Party is anti-semitic to the core!

Shameful!

Spare me the faux outrage. Don't pretend Christian politicians haven't prayed for God to intercede in national or international politics.

 

[kiwimacahau]

For a Jew like Rabbi Emily Cohen to deny that the Jews should be identified by their nationality demonstrates that she either does not believe the OT Scriptures or that she is just plain ignorant of what the Scriptures say.

Gross stupidty!

And that would be wrong. Judaism is a religion not a nationality. Once you define it legally as a nationality you are half-way to being able to insist that Jews must wear particular clothing, *yellow stars*;

 

[chair]

And that would be wrong. Judaism is a religion not a nationality. Once you define it legally as a nationality you are half-way to being able to insist that Jews must wear particular clothing, *yellow stars*;

The Jews are an national group, and "Judaism" is their religion. I don't know about legal definitions, or what triggers antisemitism . I know what reality is.

 

[ok doser]

Trump did this to have a lever with which to stop campus protests against Israel?

Who is protesting Israel on American campuses? American? Non-Americans?

What is their argument?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And? She was clearly criticizing the Israeli government.

Not only was she making stupid remarks about the USA's best friend in the Middle East but she was also lending support to the terrorists who attack Israel.

Are you not even aware that Israel is the only democracy in that area. Why shouldn't Americans support Israel and why would Omar throw Israel under the bus?

And why did the Democrat Party just ignore Omar's statements?

 

[Gary K]

And that would be wrong. Judaism is a religion not a nationality. Once you define it legally as a nationality you are half-way to being able to insist that Jews must wear particular clothing, *yellow stars*;

So, even though the Jewish nation existed for millenia before national socialism reared it's ugly head you're going to insist that being Jewish is only a religion. Well, there are a lot of Jews who disagree with you. Try reading Josephus who predates your ideas by a couple of thousand years. He repeatedly calls the Jews a nation all throughout his book, The Antiquities of the Jews. I searched my copy of it this morning after reading your post and he referred to the Jews as a nation many, many times. I didn't count them all up but there have to around a hundred references to the Jews as a nation.

Also try reading the sacred Jewish scriptures, the Torah. You know, the basis of Judaism. It refers to the Israelites as a nation many times. It also refers to the Kingdom of Israel many times and if you know anything of Jewish history you know that they were ruled by kings for at least a thousand years. And as any thesaurus will tell you the word nation is a synonym of the word kingdom.

In Genesis 12:2 God promises to make a "great nation" out of the descendants of Abraham.
Genesis 18:18 says Abraham's descendents will become a "great and mighty nation".
In Genesis 46:3 God tells Jacob that he is going to make a "great nation" out of the Israelites during their stay in Egypt.
Deuteronomy 4:6,7 once again refers to the Israelites as a nation.
Deuteronomy 26:5 says when the Israelites left Egypt they were a "nation, great, mighty, and populous".


In the New Testament the Jews referred to themselves a nation: John 11:50 says that the high priest of the Jewish religion said that it was better for one man to die than for the nation itself to die. He made it very clear that the Jews were a nation and had a national identity.

 

[ok doser]

Kiwimatchoo is in a bind here - as a leftist he wants to attacks the Israeli state and support the terrorist Palies

but he doesn't want to be seen as racist

this is exactly what Trump intended and exactly why kiwimatchoo is opposed to it, even though he's not American