Why do you even bother posting here in the first place?
You can deny that I made an argument all you like but the post is there for all to read.
:wave2:
John Calvin said this....
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
You can deny that I made an argument all you like but the post is there for all to read.
:wave2:
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Shore is and it's good comedy.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I am not a calvinist nor Augustinian who I consider to be blasphemers for exactly the same reason you do.
Free will is a necessity to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil (Calvinists accept that HE creates evil, I don't), so that love and our marriage to HIM is a real loving marriage and and so that the guilt of the condemned is a real guilt, not arbitrary pseudo-justice.
Since we know all men are born in sin, that is enslaved by sin, we know there is no free will for mankind but we are all experiencing HIS predetermination of our lives for HIS redemptive purposes for HIS sinful elect. IF we are sinners it is clear that our sin must have been by our free will choice or there is no justice. IF we are born into sin it is obvious that our time of free will choice was before we were born. It is HIS attribute of love that proves this doctrine because, since love does no harm a loving GOD could not create evil people in Adam's sin which is the ultimate harm that can be done to anyone!
Matt 13:38-30 attests to the fact that the people of the kingdom, that is, the good (elect) but sinful seed, are sown into the world by the Son of Man and the people of the evil one, that is the reprobate tares, the goats condemned already, are sown into the kingdom by the devil. Sown cannot mean be created because the devil can't create so it must have its ordinary meaning of "to be moved form a place of storage to a place of growth." This shows us that we were separated into the elect and the reprobate prior to our being conceived on earth and while it does not say this separation was by our own free will choices, this idea is a necessity to assure GOD's justice, that is only those guilty by their own choice are condemned.
All men are born sinners is just another way of saying "only sinners are born on earth." The earth is the place where HIS sinful elect can live with the tares, the method HE chose to redeem HIS sinful elect and bring them back to HIS fold. As such we live perfectly predetermined lives to be perfectly redeemed.
So yes, no free will on earth and GOD's justice are easily reconciled by the many many verses that hint at, imply and suggest the absolute necessity of our having lived and made our free will decisions pre-earth in sheol. Otherwise we must pretend that being enslaved by sin has no meaning whatsoever and saved by grace only also is rejected in favour of salvation by sinners choosing to be saved which cannot be supported no matter how many pages of theo-babble are written.
Yeah, sure does look like it.
HisServant
New member
God is justice... end of story.
There is my definition of justice.
There is my definition of justice.
This is a meaningless tautology.
Righteousness and justice are two applications of the same thing.
God is righteous because He does rightly, He is just because He judges rightly.
If you think that's "judging God" then so be it. I'm in good company.
Genesis 18:25 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psalms 7:10 My defense is of God,
Who saves the upright in heart.
11 God is a just judge,
And God is angry with the wicked every day.
17 I will praise the Lord according to His righteousness,
And will sing praise to the name of the Lord Most High.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Psalm 103:6 The Lord executes righteousness And justice for all who are oppressed.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psalms 7:10 My defense is of God,
Who saves the upright in heart.
11 God is a just judge,
And God is angry with the wicked every day.
17 I will praise the Lord according to His righteousness,
And will sing praise to the name of the Lord Most High.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Psalm 103:6 The Lord executes righteousness And justice for all who are oppressed.
Resting in him,
Clete
Okay, so far! :up:
Original sin is not biblical, so no, we don't all know this. This is the fundamentally flawed premise in the rest of your logic.
As I said, original sin is not biblical. Romans 5 teaches us that Christ's death dealt with the issue of Adam's sin. No one is sent to Hell for the sins of their father.
Further you seem to suggest here that each person is a special act of creation by God. This is not supported by the bible either.
You are the only person I have ever come across that believes such a thing. Where did you hear this teaching?
We did not exist before we existed and there is no need to go to such lengths to rationalize what amounts to a pretend compatibility with the Calvinist understanding of election with the justice of God. Just throw out the Calvinistic ideas about election and original sin and your problem goes away without the need for some made up notions about how we chose before we existed.
Indeed, this kind of back wrenching contortion of logic is the clue that you've gotten something wrong. The bible is not that difficult a book to read and understand. If you are having to pull stuff out of thin air, (really important stuff by the way that you'd think God would have included in scripture), then its time to stop and take several steps back and question your premises.
Why do you reject Augustinian theology on predestination and accept Augustinian theology on original sin? The only reason you have ever heard of original sin is because of Augustine.
This is just ridiculous!
You believe we had free will before we existed but that everything is predestined after. What planet were you on when you were taught this? The bible doesn't teach this nonsense!
Theo-babble! Did you just say theo-babble?
This post is the biggest bunch of theo-babble that could ever be written in so few words!
The bible is filled from beginning to end, on every page with people making free will choices. You make a thousand choices a day, every day. Why do you feel the need to reconcile one Augustinian theology that you disagree with another that you do? Why not just reject both?! Even Augustine himself believed in free will prior to the Pelagian controversy, which just so happens to have been, in large measure, over the issue of original sin and infant baptism.
One final point. And this is the key point of the whole post. If you don't pay attention to anything else, focus at least on this. Neither the doctrine of predestination nor original sin can survive even a surface reading of Ezekiel 18.
Ezekiel 18: The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Resting in Him,
Clete
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HisServant
New member
And all of that stems from God's standard of justice.... which is very different from yours or mine.
He created this universe and can do anything he wishes with it because it is his.
Which is why we can be confident that everything God has promised will come true (if we understand the promise)... because no one and no thing can thwart it.
Says you, as though the standards of justice are a matter of opinion!
It's not different than mine! A God gave us the standards of justice in scripture!
Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, And his tongue talks of justice.
Psalm 106:3 Blessed are those who keep justice, And he who does righteousness at all times!
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;
4 To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretion—
5 A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:15 It is a joy for the just to do justice, But destruction will come to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 28:5 Evil men do not understand justice, But those who seek the Lord understand all.
Psalm 106:3 Blessed are those who keep justice, And he who does righteousness at all times!
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;
4 To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretion—
5 A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.
Proverbs 21:15 It is a joy for the just to do justice, But destruction will come to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 28:5 Evil men do not understand justice, But those who seek the Lord understand all.
I could go on and on quoting scriptures that teach that not only can we understand justice but are commanded to do it.
Not and remain just He can't!
Yeah, your puny god can't win unless he rigged the game in advance. What a pathetic religion you hold too.
The God of the bible is a mighty God who wins IN SPITE of His enemies best efforts, not because He orchestrated them!
Resting in Him,
Clete
HisServant
New member
Justice IS a matter of opinion... be it the opinion of the one who was wronged or the opinion of the judge presiding over the case... Justice is NOT black and white.
If a woman is raped.. one woman might see justice as having the raper put to death, another may see justice as a sum of money and so forth.
God judges according to his standards and opinions as to what the appropriate punishment is to mete out justice.
It really bothers me that you think God owes you something... he doesn't.
If you are a futurist, then you cannot escape your belief that God is going to eventually destroy this world and create a new one... how does that fit in with your mortal sense of 'Justice'... it doesn't
Have you no fear of God?
Or are you one of those that want him to be your best friend or boy friend?
You are not a Christian.
The former is correct, the other unjust.
This is self contradictory. If there are standards, opinions are moot.
You're an idiot if you believe that I think that God owes me anything.
How so?
Please explain to me how that is in any way a violation of the principles of justice?
Calvinism IS a mental disorder!!!!
It is you who have no fear of God, not me!
My actions mean something, yours are just the next act in the play!
Besides, if your right, wouldn't it have been God who decided whether I would fear Him or not?
What the hell is this supposed to mean? That God is a fagot? Does your blasphemy know no bounds?
As for being God's friend, I could think of no higher honor than to called the friend of God. It has been accomplished before and in fact I am God's friend, in Christ.
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
Resting in Him,
Clete
HisServant
New member
Sigh... such an immature understanding of scripture... I don't even know where to start to teach you the error of your beliefs.
Even when you give up, you testify to the falseness of
Your doctrine.
Your lack of ability and my error must have been predestined, so why worry about it?
HisServant
New member
Even when you give up, you testify to the falseness of
Your doctrine.
Your lack of ability and my error must have been predestined, so why worry about it?
This guy can explain it better than I can... its worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoVNHt4ls50
Dialogos
Well-known member
I'll deal with Jeremiah 25 now and then double back to address your objections to my Sander's quote.
Which you almost did.
Though your observations didn't actually rebut my argument, but more on that later.
God is NEVER unjust.
God’s sovereignty doesn’t make Him unjust, it’s the unjust judges, like yourself, who think they sit in the judgment seat while placing the Lord Almighty in the chair of the accused who are acting foolishly.
Incidentally, if you had ever read Calvin honestly and contextually you would realize that this is a huge point Calvin makes repeatedly. You don't get to sit in judgment on God's sovereignty.
1. God caused the destruction of the nation of Judah and the exile of Israel through the agency of Babylon.
2. God justly punishes Babylon for destroying Jerusalem and for enslaving Israel.
I know that this offends your perverted sense of justice, but the error is not with God or with the bible, the fault is with you and your bad theology.
Said the pot to the kettle…
I don't call the Lord unjust, neither does Calvin. This is just a straw man argument that you like to set up and push down.
And, incidentally, your own theology can’t escape the trap you try and set for the Calvinists.
You don’t get that yet you, do you?
If God is omnipotent, or omnicompetent if you prefer that term, then ALL of the horrible events that you think make Calvin’s God unjust for “causing,” you must concede that God allowed to happen when He could have easily stopped or prevented all of them.
Now, Clete will blow his top and begin ranting. We will find that in no place can we find an answer to my simple questions in his rant.
Take a breath, Clete
Rant on…
Christianity Today is probably not going to pick up a peace on a Enyart.
:nono:
And I see two very clear truths.
1. God, in His sovereignty caused Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and carry those not destroyed into exile for 70 years.
2. God punishes Babylon for destroying Israel and carrying those not destroyed into exile for 70 years.
And your answer to this clear conclusion from this text is…?
:sigh:
Bummer, I was hoping I'd get an answer here.
No such luck.
This is an insult, not an answer.
Read it for yourself straight out of God's word.
The scriptures could not be more clear you don’t even have to read past verse 9 to see God’s active calling of Bablyon to destroy Jerusalem!
God sent Babylon, called Nebuchadnezzer his servant, brought Babylon against the land and its inhabitants, devoted them to destruction and made them a horror.
These are all things that the Holy Scripture says that God did, right out of the passage, Clete.
Does the bible say God did those things or not?
He actively destroys the nation of Judah, making them a horror, a hissing and a desolation. He actively brings the rest of the nation into slavery. He does so through Babylon, His instrument of judgment. Then He punishes Babylon for doing what He called that nation to do.
Your attempt to tell us why God did this does not explain away my argument. Nor does it avoid the fact that this is a clear illustration of God doing what you say He can never do and remain just.
But this text tells us that God did, in fact, cause the horrible, desolation of Judah and caused the nation to go into slavery.
It also tells us that God punishes the secondary means (Babylon) for "the work of their hands." (verse 14) in doing what God purposed that they would do.
Calvinists are just fine with people making choices and nations making choices. Incidentally, most Calvinists, of the compatibilistic variety will argue that Israel made a genuine choice to reject the Lord and Babylon made a genuine choice to destroy Judah, but neither choice escaped the sovereign hand God.
So let’s hear your specific answer to my claim.
1. God actively called Babylon to destroy Judah, true or false?
2. God punished Babylon for destroying Judah, true or false?
:nono:Clete said:
No, nevertheless I think you are profoundly confused.Clete said:
Actually, I had hoped you would read it. I'd even be delighted if you would actually address the arguments I made from it.Clete said:
Which you almost did.
Though your observations didn't actually rebut my argument, but more on that later.
Wrong.Clete said:
God is NEVER unjust.
God’s sovereignty doesn’t make Him unjust, it’s the unjust judges, like yourself, who think they sit in the judgment seat while placing the Lord Almighty in the chair of the accused who are acting foolishly.
Incidentally, if you had ever read Calvin honestly and contextually you would realize that this is a huge point Calvin makes repeatedly. You don't get to sit in judgment on God's sovereignty.
And it appears you haven’t read the passage carefully, were you to have done so you could easily ascertain two truths:Clete said:
1. God caused the destruction of the nation of Judah and the exile of Israel through the agency of Babylon.
2. God justly punishes Babylon for destroying Jerusalem and for enslaving Israel.
I know that this offends your perverted sense of justice, but the error is not with God or with the bible, the fault is with you and your bad theology.
:chuckle:Clete said:
Said the pot to the kettle…
You absolutely are wrong to call God unjust.Clete said:
No, I think any moderately intelligent person probably understood that my argument was that the bible illustrates that your criteria for justifying God as just or accusing God as unjust is flawed.Clete said:
I don't call the Lord unjust, neither does Calvin. This is just a straw man argument that you like to set up and push down.
And, incidentally, your own theology can’t escape the trap you try and set for the Calvinists.
You don’t get that yet you, do you?
If God is omnipotent, or omnicompetent if you prefer that term, then ALL of the horrible events that you think make Calvin’s God unjust for “causing,” you must concede that God allowed to happen when He could have easily stopped or prevented all of them.
If you don't want to be called a heretic, then don't make heretical arguments.Clete said:
Now, Clete will blow his top and begin ranting. We will find that in no place can we find an answer to my simple questions in his rant.
Clete said:
Take a breath, Clete
Rant on…
Can you let me know when you are done with your tantrum?Clete said:
:yawn:Clete said:
Lets be real. Very few people know who you or Bob Enyart are.Clete said:
Christianity Today is probably not going to pick up a peace on a Enyart.
Is there an answer to my very clear and specific questions anywhere in here Clete?Clete said:
:nono:
Hallelulah, we might actually be approaching a bible based answer here folks.Clete said:
Gladly, done.Clete said:
And I see two very clear truths.
1. God, in His sovereignty caused Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and carry those not destroyed into exile for 70 years.
2. God punishes Babylon for destroying Israel and carrying those not destroyed into exile for 70 years.
And your answer to this clear conclusion from this text is…?
Clete said:
:sigh:
Bummer, I was hoping I'd get an answer here.
No such luck.
This is an insult, not an answer.
Clete said:
Read it for yourself straight out of God's word.
The scriptures could not be more clear you don’t even have to read past verse 9 to see God’s active calling of Bablyon to destroy Jerusalem!
God sent Babylon, called Nebuchadnezzer his servant, brought Babylon against the land and its inhabitants, devoted them to destruction and made them a horror.
These are all things that the Holy Scripture says that God did, right out of the passage, Clete.
Does the bible say God did those things or not?
This is a tired old, pathetic replacement for actual, rational, biblical thinking Clete.Clete said:
Logical fallacy, poisoning the well.Clete said:
God wants Israel to obey, they don’t, so what does God do?Clete said:
He actively destroys the nation of Judah, making them a horror, a hissing and a desolation. He actively brings the rest of the nation into slavery. He does so through Babylon, His instrument of judgment. Then He punishes Babylon for doing what He called that nation to do.
Your attempt to tell us why God did this does not explain away my argument. Nor does it avoid the fact that this is a clear illustration of God doing what you say He can never do and remain just.
But this text tells us that God did, in fact, cause the horrible, desolation of Judah and caused the nation to go into slavery.
It also tells us that God punishes the secondary means (Babylon) for "the work of their hands." (verse 14) in doing what God purposed that they would do.
Canard.Clete said:
Calvinists are just fine with people making choices and nations making choices. Incidentally, most Calvinists, of the compatibilistic variety will argue that Israel made a genuine choice to reject the Lord and Babylon made a genuine choice to destroy Judah, but neither choice escaped the sovereign hand God.
So let’s hear your specific answer to my claim.
1. God actively called Babylon to destroy Judah, true or false?
2. God punished Babylon for destroying Judah, true or false?
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
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It doesn't say that! You add that.
That's all you get. I won't waste any more effort with you.
One day in the land of Gangsterville there was a judge. One evening on his way home from a hard day of adjudicating cases in the court room he decides he wants a beer. He stops at the next convenient store, walks in and pulls a gun. He doesn't point the gun at the store owner but rather at another customer, telling his poor, frightened and shaking victim that if he doesn't grab a case of Coors Light (in bottles, of course) and walk out of the store without paying for them that he's going to kill him right there on the spot. His victim complies, gets into his truck and races away from the store as quickly as possible.
As he is leaving, the judge takes down the man's license plate number, calls the police and has the man arrested. The next day the man shows up in court and the judge convicts him of robbery and assigns the appropriate punishment.
Is the judge of Gangsterville just?
Calvin and Dialogos say, if the judge is God then yes, of course he is!
Their brains do not work!
Resting in Him,
Clete
As he is leaving, the judge takes down the man's license plate number, calls the police and has the man arrested. The next day the man shows up in court and the judge convicts him of robbery and assigns the appropriate punishment.
Is the judge of Gangsterville just?
Calvin and Dialogos say, if the judge is God then yes, of course he is!
Their brains do not work!
Resting in Him,
Clete