John Calvin said this....

glorydaz

Well-known member
God's grace works the same before and after conversion, Shasta.

According to Phil 2:12-13, the work of sanctification is God's work, for His own pleasure. He does the willing and He helps us perform all good works for Him.

I think that means God works in us to desire to do His good pleasure and the ability to do it. We have a desire to please Him when His love is shed abroad on our hearts by the Spirit.
 

Totton Linnet

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I agree. I was merely pointing out what I see as flaws in Calvin's system. Specifically I was making the point that if God can use irresistible grace to make a person come to salvation then He should be able to use this same grace to keep his chosen from sinning. Yet for some reason there is a odd incongruity between how grace works before and after salvation. This presents no problem to my own belief system. I think men are drawn by the Spirit but must yield their will voluntarily, both in salvation and afterward.

God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure

Now if it were a fellow man willing in us I would understand why it upsets some...but it is God, don't you want for God to will IN YOU to do of His GOOD PLEASURE?

I do........it is what man is created for, why seek for Christ to dwell in our heart by faith? if you are not willing for Him to will and to do of His good pleasure in and through us.

Oh it will make us puppets...really? rather it makes us the arm of God, the body of Christ.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure

Now if it were a fellow man willing in us I would understand why it upsets some...but it is God, don't you want for God to will IN YOU to do of His GOOD PLEASURE?

I do........it is what man is created for, why seek for Christ to dwell in our heart by faith? if you are not willing for Him to will and to do of His good pleasure in and through us.

Oh it will make us puppets...really? rather it makes us the arm of God, the body of Christ.

My point was God does not irresistibly coerce us into doing His will but He does work in us.

...work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

I have always loved this verse because it shows the process that goes on between the Holy Spirit and man that brings about the divine will.

work out your salvation with fear and trembling

This part of the verse says that our cooperation is required. The emphasis is on human responsibility

for it is God who is at work in you

This part shows that (while we have to cooperate) we are not left to do God's will on our own. He is working towards that end inside us

both to will

One translation says "to give us the desire." Even when we set our heart to follow him our desire to follow needs to be strengthened by Him.

and to do (work or bring about). So God will not only give us the desire He will enable His will to actually occur.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I agree. I was merely pointing out what I see as flaws in Calvin's system. Specifically I was making the point that if God can use irresistible grace to make a person come to salvation then He should be able to use this same grace to keep his chosen from sinning. Yet for some reason there is a odd incongruity between how grace works before and after salvation. This presents no problem to my own belief system. I think men are drawn by the Spirit but must yield their will voluntarily, both in salvation and afterward.
No flaw here when understood from the full counsel of Scripture and not trying to pierce the veil to look into God's secret will (Deut. 29:29).

All the warning verses in Scripture are the means of God's ends that the faithful will persevere. The teachings stir up the faithful, increasing their walk of faith. Those that stumble along the way, and we all do, are tempered by the experience, the providence of God surrounding our bad choices, and His regular Fatherly discipline. This further manifests God's glory in the display of all His attributes, and His and only His power to bring good out of the bad.

AMR
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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God created evil....


......but He did not create man to be evil or to know evil, man was created for good.

evil was man's choice
Evil is not a metaphysical substance that can be created.

The fall of man was permitted by God and God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit it, having purposed it to order it to His own glory. But, let's not assume "permission" here is something passive as if God is sitting back and just watching what will happen.

Rather, permission tends to be used in the context of the work of God's providence in relation to sin. It is no idle or bare permission because it is decreed by God and therefore is a certain event. Nevertheless, so far as the execution of the decree is concerned, God is not the actor of sin. He allows it to be done by means of secondary causes and overrules it for His glory.

If one is going to use the word "created", the best one should say is that if we leave natural evil to the side (calamities of nature) and speak about evil acted out by mankind, evil is an act of the will directed against God's law. Since God ordains all things, then it would seem to follow that God "created" evil in the sense that He ordained sin. Going beyond this is going too far.

AMR
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Adam had the ability only to do evil, that is why he did evil, he was a evil tree that brought forth evil fruit Matt 7:18 !

Nope....

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Nope....

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
A good tree can't bring forth evil fruit! Matt 7:18 Adam brought forth evil fruit!
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
A good tree can't bring forth evil fruit! Matt 7:18 Adam brought forth evil fruit!

That verse is talking about how we can recognize false prophets.

Adam was made in the image of God and God called everything He made good. Don't you believe God?
 

Totton Linnet

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Evil is not a metaphysical substance that can be created.

The fall of man was permitted by God and God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit it, having purposed it to order it to His own glory. But, let's not assume "permission" here is something passive as if God is sitting back and just watching what will happen.

Rather, permission tends to be used in the context of the work of God's providence in relation to sin. It is no idle or bare permission because it is decreed by God and therefore is a certain event. Nevertheless, so far as the execution of the decree is concerned, God is not the actor of sin. He allows it to be done by means of secondary causes and overrules it for His glory.

If one is going to use the word "created", the best one should say is that if we leave natural evil to the side (calamities of nature) and speak about evil acted out by mankind, evil is an act of the will directed against God's law. Since God ordains all things, then it would seem to follow that God "created" evil in the sense that He ordained sin. Going beyond this is going too far.

AMR

Yes we have that difference of understanding on the issue of permitting sin it may seem a nitpick or [if you're polite] a nuance but it is of course the narrow way which we must find.

God foreknew man would sin, but that is not to say He permitted it, indeed He forbade it...how can we say He forbade and permitted it?

God cannot force us to love Him, if man had love toward God he would not have sinned, obedience from fear could not satisfy God's heart.

Here we see that God's calling and gifts are without repentance, they cannot be revoked....it was for man to love.....

I disagree that evil is not created, I think God created evil first, then out of the evil He creates good. The purpose of evil is to bring forth good. It is not to be pursued for it's own sake.

Evil is not sin...man's partaking of evil, and his partaking of the knowledge of evil was sin.

God forbade it.

To say God allowed it or ordained it contradicts scripture for God cannot tempt man to evil. You must see the tree of knowledge of G&E as a test...it is not a test...it just is there at heart of creation just as the tree of life is.

Evil is a fact...we tell children not to touch the electric box, we are not trying to tempt them. But without electricity where would we be?

But yes man having sinned I agree God turns it to His glory.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
That verse is talking about how we can recognize false prophets.

Adam was made in the image of God and God called everything He made good. Don't you believe God?
That verse is stating a fact, A good Tree can't bring forth evil fruit Matt 7 :18! He was not the tree of Ps1:3 !
 

Totton Linnet

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In other words...God created man with the ability to choose good over evil. :)

I have always said so...Adam could choose, we in Adam chose with him.

We chose sin over righteousness
bondage over freedom
death over life

Having made that choice we now have no more choice...we are bound to sin, we are bound to die. We are slaves, until Christ sets us free.

Choice is not freewill....we can only choose between options IF we are given an option.

If Adam had freewill he would have said "Ok God, I WILL sin but I will not die" In fact that is what the devil tricked him into believing, of course it was a lie.

Freewill doctrine is that same deception
 

Nanja

Well-known member
It's good to see you in the "Red." It shows the difference between
those who trust in the written word of God, and you.


If there is anyone who trusts in the Word of God alone it is beloved57.

Wasn't it you, and you alone, who caused him to be placed in "red"?

Yes. And all according to God's Purpose. Woe unto you!

~~~~~
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
God cannot force us to love Him,

He teaches us to love him.


Ephesians 3:19 KJV


19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.



if man had love toward God he would not have sinned,

1/2 True.

God subjected man to vanity.

Which means Adam loved himself more.


Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,





obedience from fear could not satisfy God's heart.


Maybe not but it's the starting point.



Proverbs 9:10 KJV


10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
If Adam had freewill he would have said "Ok God, I WILL sin but I will not die" In fact that is what the devil tricked him into believing, of course it was a lie.


This statement is false Tot.


1 Timothy 2:14 KJV


14 And Adam was not deceived , but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 
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