John 17: 3

[Gary K]

fzappa13 this post is for you. You said you have a good friend who is a SDA and so am I. The following verse is probably the most important verse in all of scripture as it completely explains the concept of righteousness by faith. This concept is also found throughout Ellen Whites writings. The church rejected this truth in 1888 and is now showing signs of beginning to find acceptance again within the church. Ifr a person doesn't accept this truth the only thing left to them is legalism so your friend may be stuck in it. I know a lot of SDA who are,

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[*StrongsGreek*]
01097
γινώσκω ginṓskō, ghin-oce'-ko
a prolonged form of a primary verb;
to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed):--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

Here are a couple of quotes from Ellen White's writings. This first one is from her book Steps to Christ p. 47.

Many are inquiring, “How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?” You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him.

This second quote is from Desire of Ages p. 668.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength. But we are not to place the responsibility of our duty upon others, and wait for them to tell us what to do. We cannot depend for counsel upon humanity. The Lord will teach us our duty just as willingly as He will teach somebody else. If we come to Him in faith, He will speak His mysteries to us personally. Our hearts will often burn within us as One draws nigh to commune with us as He did with Enoch. Those who decide to do nothing in any line that will displease God, will know, after pre- senting their case before Him, just what course to pursue. And they will receive not only wisdom, but strength. Power for obedience, for service, will be imparted to them, as Christ has promised. Whatever was given to Christ—the “all things” to supply the need of fallen men—was given to Him as the head and representative of humanity. And “whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.” 1 John 3:22.

Does this give you a different view of SDAs and Ellen White? If it does your friend is still stuck in legalism

 

[fzappa13]

Acquiescing to God's will is a deep subject. Many is the time I felt I was doing God's will only to come to hold a different opinion of those efforts later. Over the years I have come to see this effort as a process that involves trial and error and, from that, growth. I have found no magic utterance you can offer or hat you can put on that instantly transforms all you do and think into God's will and, in all honesty, I don't think it's entirely possible while in the flesh. Paul said as much. "That which I would I do not . etc., etc."

I think God's commandments are sort of a snap shot of what we would look like if we could.

My view of SDA's is mostly historical in nature. I think that most, if not all, denominations spring forth from, or are a direct reflection of, the times in which they manifest.

 

[Gary K]

Acquiescing to God's will is a deep subject. Many is the time I felt I was doing God's will only to come to hold a different opinion of those efforts later. Over the years I have come to see this effort as a process that involves trial and error and, from that, growth. I have found no magic utterance you can offer or hat you can put on that instantly transforms all you do and think into God's will and, in all honesty, I don't think it's entirely possible while in the flesh. Paul said as much. "That which I would I do not . etc., etc."

I think God's commandments are sort of a snap shot of what we would look like if we could.

My view of SDA's is mostly historical in nature. I think that most, if not all, denominations spring forth from, or are a direct reflection of, the times in which they manifest.

All I'm telling you is that Ellen Whites writings are Biblical. I just demonstrated that from John 17: 3. Her writings also contain a lot of the concept of ga'al. Most Protestants view Adventists as legalists and rightfully so because we have been since 1888.

Edit:

One more concept. Jesus tells us via the story of the two blind beggars that it will done to us according to our faith thus if we don't believe we can be delivered from sin it's impossible for God to deliver us from the power of sin.

 

[fzappa13]

All I'm telling you is that Ellen Whites writings are Biblical. I just demonstrated that from John 17: 3. Her writings also contain a lot of the concept of ga'al. Most Protestants view Adventists as legalists and rightfully so because we have been since 1888.

Edit:

One more concept. Jesus tells us via the story of the two blind beggars that it will done to us according to our faith thus if we don't believe we can be delivered from sin it's impossible for God to deliver us from the power of sin.

Apparently you have an overarching theme and point you are trying to make here across more than one thread and I missed it in responding to the substance of the two quotes of Ms. White that you offered. My bad. It appears you are concerned primarily with the matters of contention offered in the Minneapolis conference of the SDA in 1888, the primary contention being that of the concept of "righteousness by faith." Righteousness, as a Biblical subject, is a worthy one and not without many pertinent scriptures. If that is where you're headed I would be happy to go along.

 

[Gary K]

Apparently you have an overarching theme and point you are trying to make here across more than one thread and I missed it in responding to the substance of the two quotes of Ms. White that you offered. My bad. It appears you are concerned primarily with the matters of contention offered in the Minneapolis conference of the SDA in 1888, the primary contention being that of the concept of "righteousness by faith." Righteousness, as a Biblical subject, is a worthy one and not without many pertinent scriptures. If that is where you're headed I would be happy to go along.

Yes, that's what I'm doing. I'm glad that you will come along for the ride. I'll start another thread on righteousness by faith but not right away.

 

[fzappa13]

Yes, that's what I'm doing. I'm glad that you will come along for the ride. I'll start another thread on righteousness by faith but not right away.

10/4

 

[Nick M]

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

How does that establish righteousness by faith?

 

[Gary K]

How does that establish righteousness by faith?

Jesus is righteousness. Read the entire chapter of John 17 as it backs up this idea as does 1John.

1John 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Here it is again. In Jesus is no sin therefore He is pure righteousness. And knowing Him is, as John 17:3 says. life eternal. So salvation is about our relationship with Him.

 

[Gary K]

1Corithians 1: 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The word righteousness is translated from the Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
01343
δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342;
equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

So what is Jesus made unto us? Equity of character.

Noun: equity e-kwu-tee

1. The difference between the market value of a property and the claims held against it
   
2. The ownership interest of shareholders in a corporation
   
3. Conformity with rules or standards
   "the judge recognized the equity of my claim";
   - fairness
   
4. Treatment of different views or opinions equally and fairly
   - impartiality, nonpartisanship
   
5. (law) a legal tradition dealing with fairness and ethics

So we are made into God's standard of character. of fairness and justice by Jesus.

The word redemption is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
00629
ἀπολύτρωσις apolýtrōsis, ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
from a compound of 575 and 3083;
(the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.

If you need a review of the concept of ga'al read my thread titled ga'al.

Paul forther backs this up when he said ye are bought with a price.

1Corinthians 6: 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

 

[fzappa13]

1Corithians 1: 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The word righteousness is translated from the Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
01343
δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342;
equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

So what is Jesus made unto us? Equity of character.

Noun: equity e-kwu-tee

1. The difference between the market value of a property and the claims held against it
2. The ownership interest of shareholders in a corporation
3. Conformity with rules or standards
   "the judge recognized the equity of my claim";
   - fairness
4. Treatment of different views or opinions equally and fairly
   - impartiality, nonpartisanship
5. (law) a legal tradition dealing with fairness and ethics

So we are made into God's standard of character. of fairness and justice by Jesus.

The word redemption is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
00629
ἀπολύτρωσις apolýtrōsis, ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
from a compound of 575 and 3083;
(the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.

If you need a review of the concept of ga'al read my thread titled ga'al.

Paul forther backs this up when he said ye are bought with a price.

1Corinthians 6: 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

• "The difference between the market value of a property and the claims held against it"

I think you're missing the most important and primary meaning of the word in question. We claim Christ and He increases the value of His property which we are. Our faith in Him offsets the disparity in equity between us and God. He is our righteousness, and our faith in Him is our surety for any claim held against us by Satan.

 

[Gary K]

• "The difference between the market value of a property and the claims held against it"

I think you're missing the most important and primary meaning of the word in question. We claim Christ and He increases the value of His property which we are. Our faith in Him offsets the disparity in equity between us and God. He is our righteousness, and our faith in Him is our surety for any claim held against us by Satan.

When I see that definition I think economics, but you're correct. It's an excellent comment on what Jesus does for us. Excellent observation.

 

[fzappa13]

When I see that definition I think economics, but you're correct. It's an excellent comment on what Jesus does for us. Excellent observation.

To carry the economic analogy a step further, our monetary system was once based on and backed by gold and silver (read here The Lord) as was and is still set forth in our constitution. While we were lured into war in 1913 and 1933 our politicians incrementally replaced this arrangement with a fiat currency offered by a group of international bankers that gradually replaced gold and silver with debt (read here Satan) as our surety. I am concerned that the fate that befell our monetary system has also been visited upon our religious institutions while we were being distracted by war and the penury that followed their capture of our monetary system.

 

[Gary K]

To carry the economic analogy a step further, our monetary system was once based on and backed by gold and silver (read here The Lord) as was and is still set forth in our constitution. While we were lured into war in 1913 and 1933 our politicians incrementally replaced this arrangement with a fiat currency offered by a group of international bankers that gradually replaced gold and silver with debt (read here Satan) as our surety. I am concerned that the fate that befell our monetary system has also been visited upon our religious institutions while we were being distracted by war and the penury that followed their capture of our monetary system.

I disagree with this. It's true war causes a lot of evil but we can see in the history of our nation the steady decline in obeying God. The Pilgrims and Roger Williams were servants of God who lived up to all they knew when they came here. Roget Williams was the first who really worked at promoting religious freedom and our founders followed his ideals. From there on we have steadily walked away from God. We tolerated slavery for way too long and that itself work a baleful its baleful influence on our national character.

We have a history of harming those who were different than we are. Ask the Indians. That is not living by God's law. We have also had presidents that persecuted those who thought differently than they did. Woodrow Wilson had a secret police who arrested and deported people without due process for thought crimes. FDR worked to debase our monetary system by making it illegal to own gold and confiscating it. He also practiced racism by interning all Japanese citizens during WW 2 without showing cause. He was also responsible for provoking war with Japan. He knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor too, as our code breakers had broken Japanese encryption long before Pearl Harbor so he was also responsible for the murder of thousands of Americans. The Japanese ambassador was denied the opportunity to even speak as he was making one last attempt to avoid war the day before Pearl Harbor.

Our constitution has been under attack for a long time. That we are suffering from a debased currency is a just retribution for the evil we, as a nation, have practiced for a long time. God will not protect those who deliberately walk away from Him. Look how rapidly we have declined in the past few years. Just during my life time we have changed so much our nation is not recognizable and we are going to lose not only our civil liberties but our religious liberties also along with our financial freedom as a result. We can't enforce morality on people without violating the very principles of Christianity and taking ourselves even further away from God.

 

[Right Divider]

We can't enforce morality on people without violating the very principles of Christianity and taking ourselves even further away from God.

All laws "enforce morality on people", even God's laws.

 

[Nick M]

God will not protect those who deliberately walk away from Him. Look how rapidly we have declined in the past few years.

There is no "we'. If you mean the government, they do not represent the majority and work to undo that which is right. During this dispensation of grace, there is no nation status before God. His only nation of people is Israel, and he is not dealing with them now.

Ask the Indians.

Ask them what? The Cleveland Indians? Or did you mean a certain tribe? They acted like all other people on the planet. Land is taken in war by killing. This is a tangent, but you can't complain about one group taking land by war, but not all the others.

 

[Gary K]

There is no "we'. If you mean the government, they do not represent the majority and work to undo that which is right. During this dispensation of grace, there is no nation status before God. His only nation of people is Israel, and he is not dealing with them now.

Ask them what? The Cleveland Indians? Or did you mean a certain tribe? They acted like all other people on the planet. Land is taken in war by killing. This is a tangent, but you can't complain about one group taking land by war, but not all the others.

So in a nation where we elect our leaders how did our nation get into this condition? In the early 1900s we elected Woodrow Wilson. He was a socialist, racist, dictator. He had his own undercover army of spies who reported on political speech. He had his political opponents arrested and deported with no due process. He just put them on ships and off the went elsewhere. He's also responsible for orgs like the League of Nations and the UN which is responsible for the massive destruction it is working on the world,

FDR and Eleanor were both in contact with the Soviets and gave them the plans for the atom bomb. He confiscated all the private gold in the US and deliberately undermined our economy through his socialist policies. The great depression was his brainchild. His policies kept it going years longer than it should have, He wreaked havoc on the US and yet we the people elected him to office four times. He finally became unpopular enough that Congress passed a law that no one could serve more than 2 terms. That's the how and why of that law.

We massacred more Indians than they did white men. We ended up destroying them by placing them on reservations and forcing them to depend on government welfare distributed by corrupt Indian agents who often didn't give them what they were supposed to get. Our racism has destroyed this country. We've done the same to blacks. We have segregated them into ghettos, taught them to take soul destroying welfare, and pushed them into single mother homes through welfare. Before Johnson's welfare blacks had a lower divorce rate than whites and a strong faith in God. Now look at black society.

We've been destroying our own educational system for 10's of decades through our reelecting the swamp again and again for at least a hundred years. And we the people aren't responsible for the mess we have created?

This is why a thorough knowledge of history is vitally essential. If we don't know where we've been we don't know where we are going.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So in a nation where we elect our leaders how did our nation get into this condition?

The answer is that we elect our leaders, which has allowed far more evil men (elected by an evil majority) to lead the nation away from God than would have otherwise.

We've had 45 different people running the country in a 248-year period. That's a new leader every ~5.5 years on average. Talk about unstable!

Compare that to 63 monarchs over a course of about 1200 years for England, meaning a new leader every ~19 years on average.

 

[Nick M]

So in a nation where we elect our leaders how did our nation get into this condition?

The devil lies.

 

[Gary K]

The devil lies.

I agree. But we still allowed ourselves to be deceived,

Matthew 10: 16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

We have all of scripture to tell us how to detect the devil's lies and the Holy Spirit to enlighten us as well as the might power of prayer to ask for wisdom.

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[Nick M]

You really need to stop mixing what God calls us to separate.

I agree. But we still allowed ourselves to be deceived,

Matthew 10: 16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

We have all of scripture to tell us how to detect the devil's lies and the Holy Spirit to enlighten us as well as the might power of prayer to ask for wisdom.

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: