Job: God And Human Suffering.

[JAGG]

My view is that we Christians need to be straight forward about the fact that the Bible
clearly says that God both ALLOWS and INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings.
`
If we consider everything the Bible says about God and His long term Plan for humanity,
we will have to conclude that the God of the Bible both ALLOWS and INFLICTS troubles
on some human beings some of the time, for their ultimate eternal benefits.
`
My view is the book of Job demands we hold the above view.


_____________



Here are some highlights from the book of Job:
`
Job was "blameless and upright, he feared God and shunned evil" (Job 1:1)
`
Satan told God that Job would curse God to his face if God allowed Job to severely
suffer even though Job was innocent. (Job 1:9-11)
`
"The Lord said to Satan, Very well, then, everything he (Job) has is in your hands."
`
The results was that Job's servants were killed, and Job lost all his livestock. He went
from being very wealthy to poverty stricken overnight.
`
Moreover all Job's sons and daughters were killed when their house collapsed on them.
(Job 1; 18-19)
`
Now consider this:
`
God says to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and shuns evil and maintains
his integrity, "though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" (Job 2:3-4)
`
Think about that:

"though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason"__God (Job 2:3)​

______________


But that was not the end of Job's afflictions.


Next came God agreeing to ALLOW Satan to strike Job's flesh with severe boils.

"Job was AFFLICTED with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his
head" (Job 2:7)


------------------


Job's wife said to him, Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die."
(Job 2:9
`

Job 42: 11 says all Job's brothers and sisters and all who knew him, comforted and
consoled him "over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him."
`
"over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"__Job 42:11

`​

​

So?
`
So the God of the Bible both ALLOWS and INFLICTS severe trouble to come upon
some innocent people some of the time, for their eternal benefit
`
________________



What was Job's response to all his severe troubles?
`
"In all this Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (Job 1: 22)
`
"Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble? In all this Job did not
sin in what he said." (Job 2:10)
`

________________



How it all ended:

God restored Job's wealth and gave him back more than he had lost. (Job 42:12)
`
God gave Job new sons and daughters. Seven sons and three daughters. (Job 42:13)

`​

​

After all this, "Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children
to the fourth generation. And so he died, old and full of years." (Job 42:16-17)
`

_______________
`

​

My conclusion:
`
Christianity requires all of us to humbly summit to God our Creator and to say what
Job said, which was this:
`

"In all this Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (Job 1: 22)​

 

[JAGG]

Isaiah 45:7

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity
and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."​

 

[Bradley D]

We all have to deal with tribulations. But, we have God to trust in to guide us through them. The ultimate goal is to endure and look forward to life with God the Father and Jesus.

"Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God" (2 Cor. 1:4).

 

[way 2 go]

My view is that we Christians need to be straight forward about the fact that the Bible
clearly says that God both ALLOWS and INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings

you say God "INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."
but then quote Job where satan did all the inflicting

so

now prove God "INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."

 

[JAGG]

`
you say God "INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" for their ultimate eternal benefits."
but then quote Job where satan did all the inflicting

so

now prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."
`

`
Below are 4 arguments in support of the Biblical view that God does Himself bring trouble upon human beings.
`


(1) "the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"

Job 42: 11 says all Job's brothers and sisters and all who knew him, comforted and

consoled him "over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him."

"over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"__Job 42:11

The book of Job is inspired by the Holy Spirit and the writer of Job clearly says
that the Lord brought the trouble upon Job.

____________


(2) "me against him"

God says to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and shuns evil and maintains

his integrity, "though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" (Job 2:3-4)

"though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" __God (Job 2:3)​

_____________




(3) "I create disaster"___God

"

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" Isaiah 45:7



_________​

(4) "God works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will"

The Sovereignty Of God is a compelling Biblical doctrine that enjoys dozens of supporting

Biblical verses and passages, Here is one:

Ephesians 1:11 "according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"



_____________

`

now prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."
`​

. Regarding "for their ultimate eternal benefits" I quote Romans 8:28 "We know that in all things God
works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose."

"all things work together for good" (that would include ALL THINGS)

 

[JAGG]

`
We all have to deal with tribulations. But, we have God to trust in to guide us through them.
The ultimate goal is to endure and look forward to life with God the Father and Jesus.

"Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are
in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God" (2 Cor. 1:4).
`

Sounds good to me, really really good. I have always loved 2 Cor. 1:4

I like the NIV's translation of the passage:
`

"Praise be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion
and the God of all comfort,who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort​

those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God." 2 Cor. 1:3-4​

`
Thanks for mentioning that passage.

`

 

[way 2 go]

`
Below are 4 arguments in support of the Biblical view that God does Himself bring trouble upon human beings.
`
(1) "the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"

Job 42: 11 says all Job's brothers and sisters and all who knew him, comforted and

consoled him "over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him."

"over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"__Job 42:11
The book of Job is inspired by the Holy Spirit and the writer of Job clearly says
that the Lord brought the trouble upon Job.

I said prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."

satan inflicted the harm
Job 1:12 And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, all that is his is in your hand! Only, do not lay your hand on him. And Satan went out from the face of Jehovah.

Job 2:6 And Jehovah said to Satan, Behold, he is in your hand; but preserve his life.
Job 2:7 And Satan went out from before the face of Jehovah. And he struck Job with bad burning ulcers from the sole of his foot to the top of his head.

(2) "me against him"

God says to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and shuns evil and maintains

his integrity, "though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" (Job 2:3-4)

"though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" __God (Job 2:3)​

I said prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."

where in what you just wrote does it say God did it.

(3) "I create disaster"___God

" I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" Isaiah 45:7

give me an example because I think you misunderstand the verse
prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."

(4) "God works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will"

The Sovereignty Of God is a compelling Biblical doctrine that enjoys dozens of supporting

Biblical verses and passages, Here is one:

Ephesians 1:11 "according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"
. Regarding "for their ultimate eternal benefits" I quote Romans 8:28 "We know that in all things God
works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose."

"all things work together for good" (that would include ALL THINGS)

God allows bad things to happen

 

[oatmeal]

My view is that we Christians need to be straight forward about the fact that the Bible
clearly says that God both ALLOWS and INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings.
`
If we consider everything the Bible says about God and His long term Plan for humanity,
we will have to conclude that the God of the Bible both ALLOWS and INFLICTS troubles
on some human beings some of the time, for their ultimate eternal benefits.
`
My view is the book of Job demands we hold the above view.


_____________



Here are some highlights from the book of Job:
`
Job was "blameless and upright, he feared God and shunned evil" (Job 1:1)
`
Satan told God that Job would curse God to his face if God allowed Job to severely
suffer even though Job was innocent. (Job 1:9-11)
`
"The Lord said to Satan, Very well, then, everything he (Job) has is in your hands."
`
The results was that Job's servants were killed, and Job lost all his livestock. He went
from being very wealthy to poverty stricken overnight.
`
Moreover all Job's sons and daughters were killed when their house collapsed on them.
(Job 1; 18-19)
`
Now consider this:
`
God says to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and shuns evil and maintains
his integrity, "though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" (Job 2:3-4)
`
Think about that:

"though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason"__God (Job 2:3)​

______________


But that was not the end of Job's afflictions.


Next came God agreeing to ALLOW Satan to strike Job's flesh with severe boils.

"Job was AFFLICTED with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his
head" (Job 2:7)


------------------


Job's wife said to him, Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die."
(Job 2:9
`

Job 42: 11 says all Job's brothers and sisters and all who knew him, comforted and
consoled him "over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him."
`
"over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"__Job 42:11

`​

​

So?
`
So the God of the Bible both ALLOWS and INFLICTS severe trouble to come upon
some innocent people some of the time, for their eternal benefit
`
________________



What was Job's response to all his severe troubles?
`
"In all this Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (Job 1: 22)
`
"Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble? In all this Job did not
sin in what he said." (Job 2:10)
`

________________



How it all ended:

God restored Job's wealth and gave him back more than he had lost. (Job 42:12)
`
God gave Job new sons and daughters. Seven sons and three daughters. (Job 42:13)

`​

​

After all this, "Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children
to the fourth generation. And so he died, old and full of years." (Job 42:16-17)
`

_______________
`

​

My conclusion:
`
Christianity requires all of us to humbly summit to God our Creator and to say what
Job said, which was this:
`

"In all this Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing." (Job 1: 22)​

To attribute evil to God is not the intent of those passages.

Who literally brought the evil upon Job?

Was it God? Or was it Satan?

The record is indisputable.

Satan did the evil.

God allowed it, but He was not the instigator nor the means.

Why did God allow it?

Job, in a sense, was afraid and fearful.

We see God telling his people, fear not, over and over again.

Job 3:25.

Job admitted his error.

He was afraid and fearful

 

[JAGG]

`
I said prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."
`

There is no Bible verse that explicitly says that.

Nonetheless, since:
`
(1) "the trouble the Lord had brought upon him" Job 42:11 , and . .
`
(2) "you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" (Job 2:3) . . .
`
. . . are both correct conclusions from Job 42:11 and Job 2:3 proving that
God, not Satan, brought the trouble upon Job. (Satan was merely the
instrument God used.) . . . then it is reasonable to conclude that God
had Job's long-term ultimate good as His motive for inflicting the
suffering on Job.

(A) God did inflict the suffering (Job 42:11 and Job 2:3)
`
(B) The suffering was severe.
`
(C) God loved Job and had Job's ultimate good as His motive for bringing the
suffering on Job.
`
(D) The book of Job establishes the principle of (C).
`
(E) It is therefore reasonable to conclude that God inflicts suffering on human
beings for their ultimate eternal benefits.
`
So?
`
So the principle is established that God inflicts suffering on human beings
for their ultimate good --- even thought there is no Bible verse that explicitly
says that.
`

------------------


This stands true (God did the afflicting (Satan was only an the instrument God used)

(1) "the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"​

J​

ob 42: 11 says all Job's brothers and sisters and all who knew him, comforted and​

consoled him "over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him."​

"over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"__Job 42:11​

The book of Job is inspired by the Holy Spirit and the writer of Job clearly says​

that the Lord brought the trouble upon Job.​

___________


This stands true. God did the inflicting (Satan was only the instrument God used.)

(2) "me against him to ruin him"​

God says to Satan that Job is still blameless and upright, and shuns evil and maintains​

his integrity, "though you incited me against him to ruin him without reason" (Job 2:3-4)​

__________

​

`​

I said prove God INFLICTS severe troubles on human beings" "for their ultimate eternal benefits."​

`​

​

​

You win the point regarding the fact that there is no explicit Bible verse that says "God inflicts
severe troubles on human beings for their ultimate eternal benefits."

What I posted above is based on inferences and I will cheerfully admit that arguments based
on inferences are subjective and therefore do not rise to the certainty level of 2 + 2 = 4, therefore
I am not being dogmatic in my conclusions.

Thanks for your comments and for your insights. And thanks for taking the time to read my Opening
Post.


`

 

[JAGG]

To attribute evil to God is not the intent of those passages.

Who literally brought the evil upon Job?

Thanks for your comments.

evil - profoundly immoral and wicked

I don't attribute evil to God. Instead I attribute "trouble" and "suffering" as
being from God as recorded in the book of Job and as argued in my
Opening Post and in my posts #'s 5 and 9 written to way 2 go.

 

[JAGG]

The following has nothing directly to do with the book of Job. Nevertheless the following does
contain a principle that has an indirect bearing on God both allowing and inflicting suffering
for His long-term ultimate good purposes.
`
The Suffering Of The Lord Jesus.

(A) Acts 2:23 "by God's deliberate plan"

(B) Isaiah 53:10 "it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer"


Acts 2:23"This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you,

with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."​

________________

`

Isaiah 53:10"Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and ​

though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring
and prolonghis days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand."​

`

____________​

So?
`
So God Himself did in fact both ALLOW and INFLICT suffering upon His Son the Lord Jesus
for the long-term ultimate good of the fallen human race. This, in principle, is in harmony with

Job 42:11 " all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him"​

`

(1) God inflicted suffering upon His Son the Lord Jesus for the ultimate benefit of sinful fallen humanity.​

`

(2) God inflicted suffering on Job for Job's ultimate benefit.
`
Job ended up wiser because of all the trouble God brought upon him: See the bolded red in the quote block below:​

`

`

"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
`​

You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?'
`​

Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,​

things too wonderful for me to know.
`​

"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.'
`​

My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.
`​

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."​

Job 42:2-6
`​

 

[way 2 go]

The following has nothing directly to do with the book of Job. Nevertheless the following does
contain a principle that has an indirect bearing on God both allowing and inflicting suffering
for His long-term ultimate good purposes.
`
The Suffering Of The Lord Jesus.

(A) Acts 2:23 "by God's deliberate plan"

(B) Isaiah 53:10 "it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer"


Acts 2:23"This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you,

with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."​

:nono:
still not God doing the inflicting

how about

Dan 4:30 The king spoke and said, Is this not great Babylon that I have built for the house of the kingdom, by the might of my power, and for the honor of my majesty?
Dan 4:31 The word was still in the king's mouth when a voice fell from the heavens, saying, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is declared: The kingdom has been taken from you!
Dan 4:32 And you shall be driven from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be fed with the grass like oxen, and seven times shall pass over you until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of men, and that He gives it to whomever He desires.
Dan 4:33 The same hour the thing was fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar. And he was driven from men, and he ate the grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of the heavens, until his hair had grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

or

Jon 1:17 And Jehovah had appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

 

[JAGG]

`
still not God doing the inflicting
`

We disagree on a minor point.

I understand your position and I can appreciate it.

Thanks for the chat.