JEWISH BITTER WATERS
- Thread starter OCTOBER23
- Start date
Daniel1769
New member
1. The notion that Judaism doesn't do the animal sacrifice because they don't have the temple is a lie. God never commanded a temple to be built. God gave the Hebrews the tabernacle. The people who claim to follow the Old Testament could easily have a tabernacle today. The temple is just an excuse when questioned about not following the OT. See Exodus 25.
2. I heard rabbi's say that circumcision is not required for converts or adult Jews in general if they aren't circumcised. A google search can easily show you that this is a belief held by many rabbis. This is the first source I go when I just googled it. http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/item/is_circumcision_a_requirement_for_conversion_20070316
3. John 5:45-47
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
New member
Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism are not legally recognized forms of Judaism. Conversion to any of these splinter sects does not count as a legal conversion. Does any mainstream chr-stian consider splinter sects such as Morm-ns, Seventh Day Adv-ntists or J-hovah’s Witnesses to be real chr-stians? Judaism is no different; if some splinter group says you do not have to observe this Mitz’vah or that Mitz’vah they are heretics.
As I stated in my previous post, which you ignored, even if a gentile male has been circumcised by secular means, he must be circumcised again according to Jewish Law. If someone is converting from Reform, Conservative or Reconstructionist, they must be legally circumcised regardless of how many times they have previously been circumcised.
If you are legitimately interested in the conversion process here are a couple of links that explain it quite nicely:
http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/non-orthodox.html
http://www.judaismconversion.org/faq.html
As far as the sacrifice nonsense you keep harping on about, D’variym 12:13-14 states:
“Keep on your guard not to offer up your burnt offerings in any place that you see,
But only in the place that HaShem will choose in one of your tribes; there you shall offer up your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I have commanded you.”
The Mish’kan was nothing more than a portable temporary Temple, to be used for that express purpose. Once the Capital City was liberated, and the Temple was built some 60 years after that, there could never again be another Mish’kan. Taking away the Temple was just part of our punishment, just as chr-stianity and Islam are part of our punishment as was foretold in Torah.
As I also stated in my previous post, which you ignored, the slaughtering of animals was the smallest and least important part of the sacrificial system. It is only blood thirsty chr-stians who seem to think it was of major importance.
As I stated in my previous post, which you ignored, even if a gentile male has been circumcised by secular means, he must be circumcised again according to Jewish Law. If someone is converting from Reform, Conservative or Reconstructionist, they must be legally circumcised regardless of how many times they have previously been circumcised.
If you are legitimately interested in the conversion process here are a couple of links that explain it quite nicely:
http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/non-orthodox.html
http://www.judaismconversion.org/faq.html
As far as the sacrifice nonsense you keep harping on about, D’variym 12:13-14 states:
הִשָּׁמֶר לְךָ פֶּנ־תַּעֲלֶה עֹלֹתֶיךָ בְּכָל־מָקוֹם תִרְאֶה׃
Hishamer l’ḵa pen-taʿăleh ʿoloteyḵa b’ḵal-maqom tir’eh:
כִּי אִמ־בַּמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר־יִבְחַר יְיָ בְּאַחַד שִׁבָטֶיךָ שָׁם תַּעֲלֶה עֹלֹתֶיךָ וְשָׁם תַּעֲשֶׂה כֹּל אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּךָּ;
Kiy ʾim-bammaqom ʾăsher-yiv’ḥar HaShem b’aḥad shivateyḵa sham taʿăleh ʿoloteyḵa v’sham taʿăseh kol ʾăsher ʾnoḵiy m’tzavveka:
“Keep on your guard not to offer up your burnt offerings in any place that you see,
But only in the place that HaShem will choose in one of your tribes; there you shall offer up your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I have commanded you.”
The Mish’kan was nothing more than a portable temporary Temple, to be used for that express purpose. Once the Capital City was liberated, and the Temple was built some 60 years after that, there could never again be another Mish’kan. Taking away the Temple was just part of our punishment, just as chr-stianity and Islam are part of our punishment as was foretold in Torah.
As I also stated in my previous post, which you ignored, the slaughtering of animals was the smallest and least important part of the sacrificial system. It is only blood thirsty chr-stians who seem to think it was of major importance.
Daniel1769
New member
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;4579249 said:
Yet you haven't explained why you don't do the animal sacrifices.
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov
New member
Do you have a learning deficiency or something? Perhaps it is that you are incapable of understanding that D’variym is the same book of the Bible that you chr-stians call Deuteronomy in your pagan Greek language. Read chapter 12 in its entirety; in fact read the entire book in its entirety it might just do you some good.
Chapter 12 in particular explains that once the children of Yis’raél cross the Yar’dén, or Jordan as you call it, and enter the promised land all sacrifices and offerings can only take place at the location He chooses to place His Name and Make His dwelling. They can no longer be performed wherever they are at. The Mish’kan was only temporary while they were in the wilderness.
D’variym 12:5 – “But only to the place which HaShem your God chooses from among all of your tribes to set His Name in that place; shall you inquire after His dwelling and come to that place.”
D’variym 12:6 – “And there you will bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and the contributions of your hands, and your vows and donations, and the firstborn of your cattle and your sheep.”
D’variym 12:7 – “And there you shall eat before HaShem your God, and you shall rejoice in all that you do, you and your households, as HaShem your God has blessed you.”
D’variym 12:8 – “You shall not do all the things as we do here today, everyone doing what he sees as right.”
D’variym 12:9 – “For you have not yet come to the resting place or to the inheritance which HaShem your God is giving you.”
Seems pretty simple and straight forward to me, I don’t know where you’re getting lost. But as I said before, read the entire book. Every single time God speaks of the place He chooses to place His Name and His dwelling, He is referring to the Temple.
I don’t know how you are incapable of understanding something as elementarily simple as this; perhaps you are blinded by your chr-stian goggles.
Ben Masada
New member
Daniel, can you show me some evidence of a text that you think Moses wrote of Jesus? If I fail to explain whom he wrote about, I'll commit to accept that he wrote about Jesus.
Ben Masada
New member
Rabbi Akiva. He added that BarCorba was so bold that he cut off his thumb to show that he expected an easy battle. In fact, he and his men had eliminated almost a whole legion of Romans before he fell.
Daniel1769
New member
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;4580936 said:
If I concede this point for the sake of argument, then you still have a big problem:
You claim you have this true religion where God gave you commandments and what not, but he doesn't let you have a place to do the rituals like animal sacrifice that he commanded you to do. If God gave you things to do in the Temple, but let your Temple be taken away, maybe he isn't pleased with you! God tore down the temple because they rejected Him. He scattered them from Israel because they rejected Him.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. But he that beliveth not the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.
Daniel1769
New member
I don't really need your commentary on the Bible. The Judaism followers do not believe in the Bible so I don't really have an interest in their explanations. I know how you'll explain it. I've read all of Judaism's lies. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denieth the Father and the Son. ...I don't take to heart what liars say about the Bible.
Ben Masada
New member
Take it easy man! You must have found out that you don't have what it takes to discuss the Scriptures with a Jew. Especially a Jew who has some form of expertise in your own NT. This reaction of yours only tells us that you are well aware that there is nothing in the whole of the Tanach about Jesus. Hey! I understand you. Who, anyway can live without some kind of illusion? Illusions do tend to be sweet.
How about Isaiah, Moses was not the only prophet to Israel.
In all their affliction He was afflicted and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them and He bore them and carried them all the days of old. (Isaiah 63:9 NKJV)
An angel is a messenger. The Angel of his Presence was a messenger, not the Most High himself.
He redeemed them. A redeemer must be next of kin, in this case a Hebrew.
Daniel1769
New member
Way to dodge my question. I'm not moving on to another subject with you here until you explain to me why God commanded you to do things in the Temple, yet has taken the Temple away from you. Why would you think God is pleased with you and your religion if he won't even allow you to have the place you claim is needed to actually follow the religion?
Ben Masada
New member
The Lord has no pleasure in sacrifices, besides the fact that He never commanded that sacrifices became part in the religion of Israel. (Jer. 7:22) He adopted that addition because of the Man Moses was; the most important Prophet in the History of
Israel. Moses, used of pichuach nephesh to add the sacrifices and the Lord let it remain as it did. Then, it was because of the sacrifices that Israel degenerated into all forms of idolatry.
Ben Masada
New member
I do hope to have our Temple rebuilt soon but, likewise, I pray that the Lord won't allow the return of the sacrifices. We have been through that phase and today we understand that it did not help us to better our relation with the Lord. I expect the Temple to be the matrix of all synagogues throughout the world.
Ben Masada
New member
1 - Moses was the most important prophet in the History of Israel. Isaiah speaks of Israel as the Suffering Servant aka the Messiah ben Yoseph. All you need for evidence is to read Psalm. 44:9-24 where the Messiah in the concept of the collective symbolizes the one in Isaiah 53 no singular, but both are one and the same.
2 - I am aware of that.
3 - The redeemer was Israel himself as Isaiah predicted with Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21. It redeemed Judah when the Lord rejected the Ten Tribes and confirmed Judah to remain as Messiah ben David. (Psalm 78:67-70)
iamaberean
New member
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Peter is speaking to the people that would understand Joel, Jews.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
iamaberean
New member
Since Israel did not literally die your interpretation of Isaiah's prophecy is totally symbolic at best. But Jesus literally died which I don't think you have the Spirit to understand or comprehend.
Too bad.
Ben Masada
New member
The main commandment of the Lord unto Moses was to take God's People to the Promised Land of Canaan. After 430 years of life in Mitzraim the daily presence of sacrifices had caused the Israelites to get used to a religion with sacrifices witnessed daily among the Egyptians. They wanted to be like the other nations.
When Moses arrived in Egypt with the divine mission to fulfill that commandment, Moses had never mention the form of religion would be the religion of Israel. When Moses realized how hard would be to freed the Israelites with a religion without sacrifices, he soon realized that it would not work. The Israelites who had never had a nation of their own would not accept any different method. They wanted to be like all the other nations.
It was then that Moses used of Pichuach Nephesh in order to easy things up. Although the Lord had never commanded that sacrifices of animals be part of the religion of Israel, as we have from Jeremiah 7:22, He allowed things for a time which indeed proved catastrophic but, He allowed for the sake of Moses and the People. Pichuach Nephesh was an allowance to wave a commandment when another more important was needed to replaced it.