I am not sure about delayed judgment or what ideas there was, and not about what victorious in justification is either.
ECT Jewish and Christian; Judaism and Christianity; all of the Bible beginning with Torah
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I am not sure about delayed judgment or what ideas there was, and not about what victorious in justification is either.
Ok, sure, that's why all Jews have no need for anyone to teach them since they all know the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:34)
When you speak of delay I don't know what you mean, regardless of what people think about AD 70. That is, was all that was to come the prophecy of Jesus at the time He made this statement? I believe He has yet to return, and that is what I see as not having been fulfilled.
Does this verse have anything to do with what you are saying?
Luke 24:18 NASB - 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?"
Nope. Your comment was that all the Law and the Prophets had been fulfilled. Obviously it hasn't all been fulfilled.
I believe I said Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, and I don't know that you would say He didn't.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Follow Mt24's split at v29. The material before is about 1st century Judea (local references, verified specifics). That's 24A. B is the whole world and the final day of judgement. But at the point the Son did not known when it would be 'game over.' Mk 13 also allows for a delay, giving 4 options as to when the Owner might return. 2 Peter 3 is an explanation that there is a delay, but it is has a reason--God wants more people to be saved. So, apparently, some people got the impression that Mt24 B must be right after A and missed that there could be a delay, causing Peter to explain it more completely.
Here are the chapters you have mentioned, below. I do not see your perspective, and I do not know it to be true.
Matthew 24:1-51 NASB - 1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. 42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. 45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 13:1-37 NASB - 1 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" 2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down." 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, 4 "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?" 5 And Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 6 "Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He!' and will mislead many. 7 "When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end. 8 "For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. 10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 "When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. 12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 15 "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house; 16 and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat. 17 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 "But pray that it may not happen in the winter. 19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance. 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. 28 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come. 34 "It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert. 35 "Therefore, be on the alert--for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning-- 36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 "What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"
2 Peter 3:1-18 NASB - 1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.
In Luke 24 He makes it clear He has fulfilled that which concerned or had to do with the FIRST of His Advent.
Earlier in the chapter he already chastised two of His disciples for their having failed to believe all that the Law and the Prophets had written concerning the TIMING of such things as to What He was to fulfil When.
In 1 Peter, the Apostle Peter touches on this two stage Advent the Law and the Prophets had prophesied.
In all that, there is the sense that what He is asserting He fulfilled was that which concerned the FIRST stage of His Advent.
I suspect this is what you are saying but you are not being very clear about it - you keep asserting something along the line of "He fulfilled it... but..."
This tells me you have yet sorted out many of these issues.
Its why you have one foot in MJ and the other in Christianity so called.
You see a tension there that allows neither the one, nor the other.
You have ended up in a compromise with both, are fine with that, but that is all the result of what you have yet to resolve as to the above.
Both systems - Law and Grace - ARE equally valid systems. But they are NOT one and the same.
The Law and the Prophets had promised ISRAEL a Grace.
This is A PROPHESIED Grace, 1 Peter 1.
It will extend to the Gentiles in its "due season" Isaiah 2:1-5.
ON THE OTHER HAND..
The Grace that THE Apostle of THE UNcircumcision preached, had been "a Mystery" Eph. 3.
Failing THIS distinction ends one up at "yeah, but Torah" this, and "Torah" that.
But I do not expect my words to pierce through your error. In your mind it has cost you much and such cost is not one that pride and its resulting reasoning is often found easily willing to reexamine, no matter how much it asserts "I'm open to reason."
Yes, he will fulfill all that is written of him, but he has not done so yet.
For example, he said the Passover is not yet fulfilled.
However, he has fulfilled reconciliation with the Father for everyone.
That's what he was referring to when he said it is finished. That was step one, but there's more to come.
I don't know how to respond to you.
I don't follow you. I am not following what you are saying. I'm not following you.
What you are saying is not something I agree with. I don't know what you are saying.
Some of what has been written of Jesus, in terms of prophecy to be fulfilled, was written in what are known as the Gospels, or the New Testament.
Am well aware of that. Regrettably,
I do attend a church and a Messianic Congregation, though I would be a convert to Judaism (with belief in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah) Messianic Judaism or not, while having remained a Christian. The point I am making is that for me Judaism precedes Messianic Judaism, even with belief in Yeshua as the Messiah and remaining a Christian.
Perhaps for you, but not in Scripture.
Messianic Judaism in Scripture is Judaism in Scripture.
Deuteronomy 18:
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Acts 3:
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his holy prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
But there was/is a problem...
2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
What you fail to see is that Paul wrote that, AFTER God had TEMPORARILY turned from the nation Israel.
Contrast what the Spirit ALSO said TO ISRAEL through Peter in Acts 3, with what He said TO ISRAEL through - get this - THE Apostle OF THE GENTILES...
The Spirit through Peter speaking TO ISRAEL in Acts 3:
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
The Spirit through a NEW Apostle - OF THE GENTILES: Paul, speaking TO ISRAEL in Acts 13:
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
18 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Things went from "unto you first" to "lo, we turn to the Gentiles..."
Read Romans 1 thru 3, and you'll see from those THREE chapters that this is what the Apostle OF THE GENTILES actually means in Romans 1:17's "to the Jew first.."
That statement is a SUMMARY statement of the history of Israel's rejection AS A NATION of their access FIRST (above all other nations) to "the salvation of God" that this odd new Apostle - OF THE GENTILES - then goes into in Romans 1 thru 3, and that he later further elaborates on in Romans 9 thru 11.
Messianic Judaism died out in the 1st Century, as James, Cephas, and John, and their followers were the last in, and it then TEMPORARILY diminished away "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..."
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Things went from that nation FIRST by Covenant - and THEN the Gentiles - as PROPHESIED...
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Things went from that, to individual Jews and Gentiles ABSENT OF the Covenant distinction.
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
I disagree with you. My understanding is that you are disagreeing with that Judaism preceded and looked forward to Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ). Messiah means anointed, and so does Christ.
I don't know myself to be a Messianic Jew. Maybe as a convert. But my understanding is that I am a Jewish-Christian, whether by proselyte to Israel or Judaism or by convert to Judaism not absent prophecy concerning the coming of Messiah and the new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah, which came to pass about two thousand years ago, in Yeshua (Jesus).
Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Luke 22:20 NASB - 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
You are confusing the means of that New Covenant - His Blood - as being the same as said New Covenant having come to pass.
According to Hebrews 2, what happened in Early Acts had been a foretaste TO ISRAEL of Israel's New Covenant world to come.
This is what Peter is relating in Acts 3 TO ISRAEL will take place when the Lord returns to blot out their sin (New Covenant Promise).
The Little Flock only had a foretaste of THEIR "world to come."
As a result, they had all been able not only to speak the same thing, but to have all things in common.
As that temporary foretaste began to dimish away as Israel continued its rebellion, the Little Flock ended up not only no longer of one mind, but now had to rely on Gentile offerings to keep from starving. For, as instructed; they had sold all their possessions.
Why?
Because Israel is a nation that entered into Covenant with God. They ALL suffer together - because this is the Covenant they entered into with God.
Read THEIR PROPHET: Daniel, in his prayer in light of this exact understanding in Daniel 9.
Geez, actually stop and think for a moment - Daniel is one of the greatest examples of faith under ISRAEL'S Law Covenant - WHY THEN is he going through all that WITH his REBELLIOUS nation.
Fools conclude "well, he was humble..."
The FACT is he understood ISRAEL'S Covenant relationship with the God of his fathers was a relationship that impacts EVERYONE OF THEM AS ONE NATION UNDER GOD.
No, not the U. S. of A. nonsense that too many have turned that into.
Rather, this as to ISRAEL..
2 Chronicles 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice. 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
You have simply made up your mind and refuse to even look at these things because you "don't agree with" them.
You don't even know what I am talking about most of the time.
One would think that might give one cause to perhaps actually pause and think on such things.
But nope. Not you.
The reason I disagree now is because the new covenant came to Israel, not the Gentiles first, in Yeshua.