Jesus' word is the center of Christianity.

[musterion]

Jacob,

If I may ask a few questions because I'm really curious about what you said...

1. Since you're choosing to keep elements of Law in order to reach those under Law, who is it today that is under Law?

2. How does your self-identifying as a Jew, and (for example) telling the lost you do not eat shrimp or pork because of the Law, help them to Christ?

3. If someone did ask you, "What must I do to be saved?" what would you tell them?

 

[God's Truth]

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. You know that's what Paul taught.

But you didn't answer the question. Are you keeping aspects of Law in order to reach those under Law? That's what you quoted from Paul. Is that the point?

One does not even enter God's grace unless they have faith that Jesus forgives them of the sins they repent of doing.

 

[Jacob]

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. You know that's what Paul taught.

But you didn't answer the question. Are you keeping aspects of Law in order to reach those under Law? That's what you quoted from Paul. Is that the point?

First there is the law of Christ, which law Paul said he is under and by which he reached those without the law.

Those who are Jewish as proselytes or converts, or Christians who chose to obey the Ten Commandments or more than the Ten Commandments are not sinning by so doing.

Paul was a Jew, actually he was of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew, of Israel. So, becoming a Jew is not required of Gentiles or Christians. But God's Law is the same now as it was then. That is, it is eternal. I am not assured of anything different. What I do know is that no one is saved or justified by keeping the Law. The Law reveals sin. It shows sin for what it is. The question is if we are to obey God's Law or if we are to obey God's commands.

Should Israel observe God's Law, meaning old covenant Law?

Then, can a person become Jewish (Judaism) or an Israelite?

In Christ this is unnecessary. But what is unnecessary is not impossible. And what is possible may bring a person closer to the one true God, the God of the Bible. It has done that for me, and I believe Christ is in it. Whether to reach others for Christ or for personal growth in the scriptures and the things of God.

 

[Jacob]

You are failing to see what is going on.

Those old laws to make one's self clean---those things were commanded by God.

Those things were just a SHADOW, a TEACHING TOOL.

Those things were about JESUS.

Observing special days is now worthless, because those special days were about Jesus. Since Jesus came, we observe HIM all day everyday.

Circumcision was a teaching tool; it is now mutilation of the flesh, because only circumcision of the heart is all that matters, and it is done by the Holy Spirit, when we are saved and given the Holy Spirit that cleans us and seals us with God.

Do you believe something can be a teaching tool if it doesn't exist or if people are taught or believe it has been done away with? I wouldn't even know what these things are if I had not searched them out.

 

[Jacob]

Absolutely. Jesus is for everyone who trust Him or believe in Him.

Amen.

 

[Jacob]

You are going against God's written Word when you say it is not possible to fall from grace.

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

I am not trying to be justified by the law. I didn't say it is not possible to fall from grace. I said obeying God is not how this happens.

 

[God's Truth]

First there is the law of Christ, which law Paul said he is under and by which he reached those without the law.

Those who are Jewish as proselytes or converts, or Christians who chose to obey the Ten Commandments or more than the Ten Commandments are not sinning by so doing.

Paul was a Jew, actually he was of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew, of Israel. So, becoming a Jew is not required of Gentiles or Christians. But God's Law is the same now as it was then. That is, it is eternal. I am not assured of anything different. What I do know is that no one is saved or justified by keeping the Law. The Law reveals sin. It shows sin for what it is. The question is if we are to obey God's Law or if we are to obey God's commands.

Should Israel observe God's Law, meaning old covenant Law?

Then, can a person become Jewish (Judaism) or an Israelite?

In Christ this is unnecessary. But what is unnecessary is not impossible. And what is possible may bring a person closer to the one true God, the God of the Bible. It has done that for me, and I believe Christ is in it. Whether to reach others for Christ or for personal growth in the scriptures and the things of God.

NO ONE can obey the old law. You cannot chose and pick what you would like to obey or can obey. The old law must be followed as a whole.

That means if you get circumcised and observe special days, then you must also do EVERYTHING ELSE the old law says to do.

There is a new law, it is a new covenant, for the old is now gone.

 

[God's Truth]

I am not trying to be justified by the law. I didn't say it is not possible to fall from grace. I said obeying God is not how this happens.

One falls from grace by trying to follow an OLD law, a law which is gone.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob,

If I may ask a few questions because I'm really curious about what you said...

1. Since you're choosing to keep elements of Law in order to reach those under Law, who is it today that is under Law?

2. How does your self-identifying as a Jew, and (for example) telling the lost you do not eat shrimp or pork because of the Law, help them to Christ?

3. If someone did ask you, "What must I do to be saved?" what would you tell them?

Romans 10:8-13 NASB - 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Acts 16:31 NASB - 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It is not just to reach those under the Law. I believe that is a side effect, so to speak.

A lost person may or may not know that I keep kosher. If it comes up, I do.

 

[God's Truth]

I am not trying to be justified by the law. I didn't say it is not possible to fall from grace. I said obeying God is not how this happens.

How did the Galatians fall from grace? Go ahead and explain that.

 

[Jacob]

NO ONE can obey the old law. You cannot chose and pick what you would like to obey or can obey. The old law must be followed as a whole.

That means if you get circumcised and observe special days, then you must also do EVERYTHING ELSE the old law says to do.

There is a new law, it is a new covenant, for the old is now gone.

I don't know about new covenant law. I know what God's Law is.

James 2:10 NASB - 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Romans 3:19 NASB - 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

1 Corinthians 9:20 NASB - 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Romans 6:14-15 NASB - 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

1 Corinthians 9:21 NASB - 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

 

[Jacob]

One falls from grace by trying to follow an OLD law, a law which is gone.

There is trying and there is obedience. These are two different things. I am circumcised. But no one needs to get circumcised in order to be a Christian.

Galatians 5:3 NASB - 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

See Romans 2.

Romans 2:25-29 NASB - 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[musterion]

This gets to the meat of what I wanted to know:

And what is possible may bring a person closer to the one true God, the God of the Bible. It has done that for me,and I believe Christ is in it.

You were a Christian who now self-identifies as both Jew and Christian.

You now keep aspects of Law whereas (I assume) you did not do so as a Christian.

You believe Lawkeeping has brought you "closer" to God than you (presumably) were when you were just a Christian.

Question: Did Paul teach that Lawkeeping makes any Christian closer to God than he'd otherwise be if he didn't observe Law? Or did Paul teach that the believer has died to Law and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in Christ (which is already pretty close) completely apart from Law?

In other words...how would Lawkeeping make you closer to God than you were when you were just a Christian?

 

[Jacob]

How did the Galatians fall from grace? Go ahead and explain that.

They didn't understand that salvation is in Jesus, not the Law. They were probably told and understood that salvation was (is) in Jesus. But, they were easily moved away from this. I am not sure if the Galatians were observing Jewish festivals. But I do know that Jewish festivals are not required for salvation.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't know about new covenant law. I know what God's Law is.

You need to learn about the New Covenant.
There is no other covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


Paul and all the disciples taught the NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[God's Truth]

They didn't understand that salvation is in Jesus, not the Law.

Are you kidding, they were saved by believing in Christ but then they were talked into observing special days and getting circumcised.

 

[Jacob]

This gets to the meat of what I wanted to know:



You were a Christian who now self-identifies as both Jew and Christian.

You now keep aspects of Law whereas (I assume) you did not do so as a Christian.

You believe Lawkeeping has brought you "closer" to God than you (presumably) were when you were just a Christian.

Question: Did Paul teach that Lawkeeping makes any Christian closer to God than he'd otherwise be if he didn't observe Law? Or did Paul teach that the believer has died to Law and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in Christ (which is already pretty close) completely apart from Law?

In other words...how would Lawkeeping make you closer to God than you were when you were just a Christian?

As a Christian I wanted to know if I should obey New Testament commands. I was told I was a legalist. I discovered that I could not obtain a true knowledge of God, at least not as I desired, but only studying the New Testament. But I still believe a person can be saved by the New Testament or even not by reading scripture at all, and that we should obey all the commands that we can obey in the New Testament. Acts 15 is a good place for a new believer to start. But salvation is not by works at all. Still, we are to obey God. This is what I discovered.

 

[God's Truth]

There is trying and there is obedience. These are two different things. I am circumcised. But no one needs to get circumcised in order to be a Christian.

Galatians 5:3 NASB - 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

See Romans 2.

Romans 2:25-29 NASB - 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

You quoted a scripture of Paul explaining how circumcision is worthless.

 

[Jacob]

You need to learn about the New Covenant.
There is no other covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


Paul and all the disciples taught the NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

There are many covenants in the Bible. The covenant God made with the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses is the old covenant now, because there is a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Gentiles who have become believers are grafted in.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't know about new covenant law. I know what God's Law is.

James 2:10 NASB - 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Love is not harming your neighbor that is how we love our neighbors, we do no harm to them.

If you do not harm your neighbor by not murdering your neighbor, it is good and you have obeyed a commandment of do not murder.

If you do not harm your neighbor by committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, then you have obeyed another commandment.

If you do not harm your neighbor so you do not bear false witness against your neighbor, you have done right and obeyed yet another command.

If you STEAL from your neighbor, you have HARMED your neighbor, AND NOW YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Do you understand now? Please study what I said so that we can truly debate.