Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[daqq]

you are pin head.

Oh be nice meshak,...even pinheads can know the Trinity :crackup:

O spank u!

Nihilo called me pinhead and I thought that was a cute name. So I used it on him

I'll bet that looks funny!

It is a cute name pinhead !!!

How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?
Seven: and they do always behold the face of your Father who is in your heavens.

 

[daqq]

How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?
Seven: and they do always behold the face of your Father who is in your heavens.

If therefore you have seven Watchers watching from the head of your pinhead, you best not mistreat the lesser members of your household-body-temple: for they are like the little ones unto your Father Elohim, and their angels do always behold the face of the Father who is in the heavens, (and your household is no more your own if you are purchased with the price). And the seven eyes of YHWH are always upon His land, a land which YHWH your Elohim tends and cares for: the eyes of YHWH your Elohim are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year. And the Absolute Master is the Avenger of all such; as even our beloved brother Paul has forewarned and testified. :chuckle:

 

[freelight]

If therefore you have seven Watchers watching from the head of your pinhead, you best not mistreat the lesser members of your household-body-temple: for they are like the little ones unto your Father Elohim, and their angels do always behold the face of the Father who is in the heavens, (and your household is no more your own if you are purchased with the price). And the seven eyes of YHWH are always upon His land, a land which YHWH your Elohim tends and cares for: the eyes of YHWH your Elohim are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year. And the Absolute Master is the Avenger of all such; as even our beloved brother Paul has forewarned and testified. :chuckle:

And the cosmic pen says "I dot my eyes on you! "

 

[freelight]

Worth-ship......

Worth-ship......

Of course you must quicky change what you said earlier:

Lets review -

Indeed, Deity alone is to be worshipped as Deity,...

&

We are to worship most truly only the Infinite Father, who is incorporeal, truly infinite, the absolute reality, source and origin of all that exists, all that is. God is Spirit. Jesus as the way, truth and life, is always pointing us Godward, to that Original Supreme Being, THE FATHER of lights, the Father of spirits, the Father of all.

No difference in what I'm sharing, since only 'God' is to be worshipped. 'God' the Father is the MOST HIGH 'God',...the Orginal ONE, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. You go directly to source as far as where your utmost worship is directed. From there, of course we worship the Son, the Christ, the Spirit (trinitize the Deity if you like).....and also afford some degrees of veneration to angels and men who are placed in special offices and roles in his kingdom (called 'gods' or 'God' as well) as affording them worship. 'Worship' is afforded by varying degrees. Utmost worship, spiritually speaking is always to DEITY Alone, as in worshipping the Father in spirit and truth.

Again, our exercise or perception of 'worth-ship' being directed to 'God' in the highest and utmost sense affords God Alone this kind of special worship. - its always this divine presence or 'value' that we are attributing 'worth' to, recognizing divinity. We worship the Son in this understanding, in as much as 'God' indwells and reveals his glory in the Son. - further on down the line in the kingdom hierarchy,....we even worship the 'God' within all souls, and express our worship of 'God' by our love towards one another, since love esteems and recognizes the VALUE of each one

 

[freelight]

Yes, the following verse is speaking of that appearing of the great God, Jesus Christ:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The following verses are also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":

"Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).​

So the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

Dear Jerry,

We've amply gone over this and my commentarial view and dissertation on Titus 2:13 holds, while recognizing the Trinitarian perspective as well. All views are given their due research and consideration. To save redundancy, let us accept our views as presented, respecting their merits, of whatever quality, and leave it at that

If we look at the entire letter to Titus, its theme is that 'God' is our Savior, and it says Jesus is our Savior as well. God reveals his glory and salvation in and thru His Son. Unitarians and Trinitarians alike may love God their Savior, no matter their Christology. Of course the Orthodox will protest over definitions!

 

[meshak]

It is a cute name pinhead !!!

Nihilo is a funny guy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We've amply gone over this and my commentarial view and dissertation on Titus 2:13 holds, while recognizing the Trinitarian perspective as well.

I read what you said. According to you the "glory" spoken of in this verse refers to the glory of the Lord Jesus, but it cannot be separated from God's glory:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

However, the "glory" being spoken of is specifically in regard to the glorious body of the Lord Jesus and therefore not any other "glory":

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The following verses are also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":

"Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).​

So the "glory" at Titus 2:13 is referring to the "glorious body" in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He appears. To attempt to apply it to any other glory then you must pervert the Scriptures. So the "glory" spoken of here belongs exclusively to the Lord Jesus. Therefore, we can understand that when Paul speaks of that glory he is saying that it belongs to the Lord Jesus, our great God:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

 

[Nihilo]

Nihilo is a funny guy.

It's easy when other user accounts are lobbing beachballs to me and I've got a big bat. 'Practically writes itself.

 

[meshak]

It's easy when other user accounts are lobbing beachballs to me and I've got a big bat. 'Practically writes itself.

Huh?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=17493]KingdomRose[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=18157]marhig[/MENTION]

What does this verse mean to you?

Isaiah 9:6 ?

 

[Nihilo]

Huh?

Don't play dumb with me Meshak.

 

[meshak]

Don't play dumb with me Meshak.

I don't get what you are saying.

 

[Nihilo]

I don't get what you are saying.

It's no biggie.

 

[meshak]

It's no biggie.

peace

 

[freelight]

Is. 9:6

Is. 9:6

[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=17493]KingdomRose[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=18157]marhig[/MENTION]

What does this verse mean to you?

Isaiah 9:6 ?

Hello EE,

I've addressed and expounded on this verse from a Unitarian perspective, and was looking for my dissertations on it,...still looking, I even provided some video lectures too in my post - First of all, I'm sure you're aware there is more than one way to interpret this verse, and given its versatility and the meanings of the words,...some intepretations are more proper, probable and contextually tenable, than others. I see a Unitarian interpretation most appropriate after one looks at all the grammatical issues involved to grant a proper exegesis. It still stands that orthodox and evangelical Christians will want to use and 'interpret' this passage as a proof text for Jesus divinity,...but since factors exist that do not support that 'interpretation', I don't think this verse is very 'strong' support for the Trinity, not necessarily speaking...although some certainly take this passage to town!

However, granted that I am eclectic and liberal, I understand one could be metaphysically inclusive enough to assign various titles and descriptions to the Messiah as being somehow divine (even God!), but do note,...the Jewish Messiah, a man anointed by God, also bears the various names and titles of 'God' because he is God's representative - so, this verse when you really dig down into the grammar, original language syntax,...does not necessarily support the claim that Jesus is God. Now before 'jumping the gun'....I'd look first into all the Jewish translations, language meanings and CONTEXT to see what this verse is speaking about, not just ones religious presuppositions and theological pretexting. You know religionists do that, at least those religionists who have a different 'translation/interpretation' than yours! aha When we consider all factors, we can arrive at a most proper and logical translation. Agree?

You might also know that to me, a Unitarian or Trinitarian view, as far assuming either one is some sort of 'absolute truth' (not) is not an endeavor or contention of mine to prove, even though I might favor one view over another at any point in time. Its just a point of view, and I have to remind myself of that...to me what is most fascinating is all the factors and nuances involved in 'intrepretating' texts. That's the fun! - and I try not to be dogmatic about anything, beyond what the facts show, and those elements that may affect our 'interpretation'. I'm sure you follow.

I'll keep looking for my former commentary and post the links, but here is a snippet from daqq and my response to him here, on this wonderful passage, actually from this thread here earlier. Please catch some key points there. More to come

 

[KingdomRose]

Wow, you really believe the spin...

I sure do. And I hope you have your eyes opened before Jesus comes at Armageddon.

 

[KingdomRose]

[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=17493]KingdomRose[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=18157]marhig[/MENTION]

What does this verse mean to you?

Isaiah 9:6 ?

There is going to be a King appointed by God to rule the earth---"the government will come to be on his shoulder," and there will be no end of peace. That King is Jesus Christ, "mighty god," NOT Almighty God. He is a powerful, important individual, and that is what "god" means. It doesn't say that he is the Most High God.

 

[Bright Raven]

There is going to be a King appointed by God to rule the earth---"the government will come to be on his shoulder," and there will be no end of peace. That King is Jesus Christ, "mighty god," NOT Almighty God. He is a powerful, important individual, and that is what "god" means. It doesn't say that he is the Most High God.

Is the Father the only true God? If so, then simple logic says Jesus is a false god since the JW's say that he is a god. What say you?

 

[daqq]

@daqq ... @KingdomRose ... @meshak ... @marhig

What does this verse mean to you?

Isaiah 9:6 ?

The same thing it meant when I responded to this twenty pages back in this same thread:

For instance, Jerry, just because you read this in most translations does not make it true:

Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
All this explains what we read here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Everlasting Father is the Mighty God, and the Mighty God is JHWH, as witnessed by what is said here:

While I still do not totally agree with the Young's Literal Bible Translation at least he was not afraid to render it for what it truly says in the most critical portion, and this is shown by how the same word form is rendered in many, many, other places:

Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power [הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה] is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name [וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ] Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

That is indeed what the text says, "HE CALLS HIS NAME", and this changes the whole meaning of what the Prophet is saying because the one who is on the neck or shoulder of the son who is given, (on his neck means, "his yoke"), is Ha-mSARah, that is, the Arche, the Empire, the Dominion, the Head, the Beginning. In other words the son that is given has Ha-mSARah on his neck or shoulder, (and his yoke is χρηστος-chestos-gracious just as he says), and HE CALLS HIS NAME the title or titles which follow in the passage, which are also not likely rendered correctly because of inaccurate vowel pointing in the Masorete Hebrew Text done by those who rejected the Messiah, (אביעד = "my father-progenitor of testimony" - "My Testimony Progenitor-Father", i.e. "the Progenitor of my Testimony", [or עד may even mean "witness" just as it is often rendered]).

PS - "Abiy" is "my Father", (not just "Father" as the English versions like to imagine).
Go ahead and see if you can prove me wrong. :duh:

 

[daqq]

There is going to be a King appointed by God to rule the earth---"the government will come to be on his shoulder," and there will be no end of peace. That King is Jesus Christ, "mighty god," NOT Almighty God. He is a powerful, important individual, and that is what "god" means. It doesn't say that he is the Most High God.

Notice that word is El, (El Gibbor, Mighty El).
And the same is used in Immanu·El, ("El is with us").