Jesus, Paul and the Law

[Robert Pate]

You bear false witness against me.

The works of the are are these things:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.


Those are the works of the law that Paul was saying that no longer save or do anything.

No, the Bible bears witness against you. I am simply telling you through scripture what the Bible says.

And now you are trying to delude the law again. There is only one law, it is the law of Moses. The Jews tried to delude the law by pulling out certain commandments and making them separate from the law, they called it the Torah. Jesus rebuked then for doing that.

Now you are trying to do the same thing. The law is one entity. It is not a bunch of commandments like you think that it is.

This is why Paul said to the Galatians and I say to you,

"Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21.

 

[God's Truth]

No, the Bible bears witness against you. I am simply telling you through scripture what the Bible says.

And now you are trying to delude the law again. There is only one law, it is the law of Moses. The Jews tried to delude the law by pulling out certain commandments and making them separate from the law, they called it the Torah. Jesus rebuked then for doing that.

Now you are trying to do the same thing. The law is one entity. It is not a bunch of commandments like you think that it is.

This is why Paul said to the Galatians and I say to you,

"Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21.

In Galatia, Paul was speaking to Galatians who were talked into doing the works of the law, these works of the law:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.


Galatians 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Did you hear that? Paul is speaking about circumcision, circumcision which is the sign and seal of all the purification works.

The purification works are the works that cleaned and justified a person, but since Jesus, one must believe that Jesus' blood cleans and justifies.

The 'not of works' Paul speaks of are those purification/ceremonial works of the law.

Paul would not ever spread a false gospel of 'believe' and be careful not to obey Jesus in any way.

 

[God's Truth]

Here Paul is so upset about it because the Galatians are resorting back to worthless things like observing special days of the law; which is not unlike what all earthy practices entailed:

Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.…

 

[Robert Pate]

Here Paul is so upset about it because the Galatians are resorting back to worthless things like observing special days of the law; which is not unlike what all earthy practices entailed:

Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.…

The sign of a heretic is that they don't care what the Bible says, they are going to believe what they want to believe. You disregard scripture or you try to find scripture that suits your fancy.

Paul is upset with the Galatians because like you they want to live according to rules and laws. Paul said, "The Just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. and not by rules, laws or religion. The reason being is that,

"Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4.

Righteousness no longer comes by the law. Righteousness only comes by faith.

"Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness" Romans 4:3.

 

[God's Truth]

The sign of a heretic is that they don't care what the Bible says, they are going to believe what they want to believe. You disregard scripture or you try to find scripture that suits your fancy.

Paul is upset with the Galatians because like you they want to live according to rules and laws. Paul said, "The Just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. and not by rules, laws or religion. The reason being is that,

"Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4.

Righteousness no longer comes by the law. Righteousness only comes by faith.

"Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness" Romans 4:3.

Faith and not works of the law had to be done, even with those who had great faith.

Abraham HAD TO get circumcised in the flesh, even though he had great faith.

Moses had to get circumcised in the flesh and circumcise his son, even though he had great faith.

God was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son.

It was right to have faith in God, but one also had to do the works of the law, and CIRCUMCISION was the sign and seal.

 

[God's Truth]

The old law was not based on faith, it was based on the purification/ceremonial works.

A person had to clean themselves to be called a child of God.

God said He would change that one day and give a new covenant to where one only had to have faith.

That does not mean God was going to save people who did not obey Him!

It means God was not going to require the purification/ceremonial works of the law anymore.

 

[God's Truth]

There were Jews who already had faith AND they HAD TO do the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

AND, there were Jews who did NOT have faith AND they HAD TO do the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

When Jesus came to earth, God cut off all the Jews who did not ALREADY have faith in Him.

God cut them off and bound them to the same place where the Gentiles were.

Jesus came first for those who already belonged to God by faith.

Jesus taught the new law, the law of faith, it was now the the covenant, which went into affect when he died and shed his blood.

 

[Robert Pate]

There were Jews who already had faith AND they HAD TO do the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

AND, there were Jews who did NOT have faith AND they HAD TO do the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

When Jesus came to earth, God cut off all the Jews who did not ALREADY have faith in Him.

God cut them off and bound them to the same place where the Gentiles were.

Jesus came first for those who already belonged to God by faith.

Jesus taught the new law, the law of faith, it was now the the covenant, which went into affect when he died and shed his blood.

Why is it that you don't use scripture to make your point. Can it be that there is none.

In the New Testament works and obedience counts for nothing, because... "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. The reason that the just shall live by faith is because the law has been fulfilled and abolished by Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:18, also Ephesians 2:15.

Wakeup, you are a law keeping Pharisee.

"But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" Romans 4:5.

Not his obedience to the law.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Faith and not works of the law had to be done, even with those who had great faith.

Abraham HAD TO get circumcised in the flesh, even though he had great faith.

Had to? Yes, but it wasn't solely for righteousness sake, if at all for it. It was to set him and his household apart from the world. In fact, Abraham was already counted as righteous, from two chapters earlier, in chapter 15.

Moses had to get circumcised in the flesh and circumcise his son, even though he had great faith.

God was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son.

It was right to have faith in God, but one also had to do the works of the law, and CIRCUMCISION was the sign and seal.

 

[God's Truth]

Had to? Yes, but it wasn't solely for righteousness sake, if at all for it. It was to set him and his household apart from the world. In fact, Abraham was already counted as righteous, from two chapters earlier, in chapter 15.

...but he had to be circumcised in the flesh, and all males in his household.

 

[JudgeRightly]

...but he had to be circumcised in the flesh, and all males in his household.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:“As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name.And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? ”And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him.Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael;and all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. - Genesis 17:1-27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis17:1-27&version=NKJV

Nowhere in that entire chapter does it say anything about doing it for righteousness sake.

Only in chapter 15 is the word righteousness used. Abram believed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abram DID NOTHING, as is illustrated in the next verses.

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him.Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces.On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites,the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.” - Genesis 15:1-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis15:1-21&version=NKJV

If someone is asleep at the time a covenant is made, then there is nothing that is expected of them to keep that covenant. Gad alone passed through the two halves of the animals, and Abram was asleep. Therefore, Abram has no obligation to do anything to keep that covenant. It all rests on God. But abraham was VERY MUCH awake in Genesis 17, and he was therefore expected to keep that covenant with God.

(Side note: Genesis 15 describes the process from which we get the phrase "to cut a deal".)

Oh, and this covenant God made with Abram? Has nothing to do with Abram being righteous. Abram was counted as righteous BEFORE God told him to cut this covenant, and before God told him to circumcise. Why? Because he BELIEVED! That's it! Simply because he believed God.

 

[God's Truth]

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:“As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name.And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? ”And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him.Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael;and all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. - Genesis 17:1-27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis17:1-27&version=NKJV

Nowhere in that entire chapter does it say anything about doing it for righteousness sake.

No circumcision, no covenant with God.
No circumcision, then you will be cut off.

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Exodus 12:48 "A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.

Joshua 23:7 Do not associate with these nations that remain among you;

Ezekiel 44:7
In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into my sanctuary, desecrating my temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke my covenant.

 

[God's Truth]

Only in chapter 15 is the word righteousness used. Abram believed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abram DID NOTHING, as is illustrated in the next verses.

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him.Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces.On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites,the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.” - Genesis 15:1-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis15:1-21&version=NKJV

If someone is asleep at the time a covenant is made, then there is nothing that is expected of them to keep that covenant. Gad alone passed through the two halves of the animals, and Abram was asleep. Therefore, Abram has no obligation to do anything to keep that covenant. It all rests on God. But abraham was VERY MUCH awake in Genesis 17, and he was therefore expected to keep that covenant with God.

(Side note: Genesis 15 describes the process from which we get the phrase "to cut a deal".)

Oh, and this covenant God made with Abram? Has nothing to do with Abram being righteous. Abram was counted as righteous BEFORE God told him to cut this covenant, and before God told him to circumcise. Why? Because he BELIEVED! That's it! Simply because he believed God.

Abraham being righteous before circumcision was not the covenant then.
However, it is the covenant now through Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

Galatians 3:7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith

 

[JudgeRightly]

No circumcision, no covenant with God.
No circumcision, then you will be cut off.

Genesis 17:14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Exodus 12:48 "A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.

Joshua 23:7 Do not associate with these nations that remain among you;

Ezekiel 44:7
In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into my sanctuary, desecrating my temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke my covenant.

Abraham being righteous before circumcision was not the covenant then.
However, it is the covenant now through Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

Galatians 3:7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are the sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith

You're not paying attention to what Scripture is saying.

God DID make a covenant with Abraham, PRIOR to his circumcision.

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him.Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces.On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites,the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.” - Genesis 15:1-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis15:1-21&version=NKJV

 

[God's Truth]

You're not paying attention to what Scripture is saying.

God DID make a covenant with Abraham, PRIOR to his circumcision.

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him.Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age.But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces.On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites,the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.” - Genesis 15:1-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis15:1-21&version=NKJV

Abraham was righteous because he believed and obeyed God, but there still was the covenant of circumcision in which circumcision was the sign and seal of the whole old law.

You want to detour from that truth---even though Paul speaks about it.
Tell me how you criticize me for bringing it up when Paul does?
Maybe you confuse a promise with a covenant?

Why are you bringing something else up when it is the works of the law that Paul is speaking of that no longer save? Paul does not teach that it is no longer by obedience. Paul is saying it is not by works of the law anymore, and those works are called purification/ceremonial works.


Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

...and before you keep deciding that you are right and I am wrong, read this:

Romans 4:10
In what context was it credited? Was it after his circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before.

Romans 4:12
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Note: the faith Abraham had before was faith, a living faith, which is faith made alive by obedience.
See James and Hebrews about that confirmation if anyone wants to say the false faith alone doctrine saves.

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.


Note: it is living faith not dead faith.

 

[God's Truth]

You are getting the Promise and the Covenant mixed up.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Right Divider]

Abraham was righteous because he believed and obeyed God, but there still was the covenant of circumcision in which circumcision was the sign and seal of the whole old law.

You are a scripture PERVERTER of the worst sort.

Romans 4:8-10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

​

Romans 4:12-14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

12 and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:​

You constantly try to CHANGE what the scripture ACTUALLY says.

 

[God's Truth]

You are a scripture PERVERTER of the worst sort.

Romans 4:8-10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

​

Romans 4:12-14 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)​

12 and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:​

You constantly try to CHANGE what the scripture ACTUALLY says.

Are you kidding? James and Paul rebuke you:

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

 

[God's Truth]

You are a scripture PERVERTER of the worst sort.

​

You should be more careful about to whom you call a "perverter".

James heard about the false beliefs of have faith and do nothing; it is why he calls the people 'foolish'.

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?


Peter heard of the false doctrine of faith alone too, and that is why he calls people ignorant and unstable---and then he warns us to obey!

Read all of 2 Peter 3, and especially 2 Peter 3:16 and 17.​

 

[Right Divider]

Are you kidding? James and Paul rebuke you:

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

There is NO PAUL there you hack.

Hebrews was NOT written by Paul.

PAUL is CLEAR in the book of Romans, but YOU PERVERT IT.

for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness

That is what PAUL says.