Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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JudgeRightly

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You have been taught that is what happened, but that is not the only explanation of the text.

Well, no, that's simply what the text says.

Jesus did not say that Thomas was blaspheming because Jesus was able to see into Thomas' heart and know what Thomas meant by his words.

So? What did Thomas mean? Because the way you make it sound, Thomas blasphemed God.

You are not able to do that, so if you mistakenly believe that Thomas is calling Jesus "my God" then the error is on you.

Well, no, if you mistakenly believe that Thomas is doing anything other than rightly calling Jesus his God, then you are saying that Thomas was blaspheming God.

The only logical possibility was that Thomas was not blaspheming God, but was calling Jesus God.

If someone startles you and you respond, "My God," are you calling that person God or are you expressing suprise?

my God
An exclamation of surprise, alarm, dismay, annoyance, or exasperation.

my God
An interjection denoting shock, distress, or surprise.


Which is ALSO blasphemy. It's called using the Lord's name in vain.

Do you really think someone who has spent the last three years with the one who taught the law of Moses, which includes "“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" would just all of a sudden blaspheme God?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
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Where does Jesus ever say He is God? Don't bother looking because it isn't there.
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John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him;...


John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”​


The notion that anyone could deny that Jesus claimed to be God is asinine in the extreme. Just who is it that you're trying to convince here?

Prediction: These totally clear, unambiguous and completely impossible to misunderstand passages of scripture will not move genuineoriginal one single centimeter. He will not concede the point AT ALL. He is a liar. He isn't here to debate, he's here to defame and blaspheme Jesus Christ and nothing else.
 

NWL

Active member
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John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him;...


John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”​






The notion that anyone could deny that Jesus claimed to be God is asinine in the extreme. Just who is it that you're trying to convince here?

Prediction: These totally clear, unambiguous and completely impossible to misunderstand passages of scripture will not move genuineoriginal one single centimeter. He will not concede the point AT ALL. He is a liar. He isn't here to debate, he's here to defame and blaspheme Jesus Christ and nothing else.

Neither of the examples you gave has Jesus saying he is God. The prhase "ego emi" (I am) is rife throughout John chapeter 8, throughout the chapter it always means "I am" how we understanding it in english:

v12 Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world.
v14 because I know where I came from and where I am going
v21 I am going away, and you will look for me
v21 Where I am going, you cannot come
v23 You are from this world; I am not from this world.
v26 the One who sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world

These are just a few occurrences out of 16 in the chapter, the question being asked to Jesus was "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?", Jesus replying "Jehovah/Yahweh" to that question makes no sense as the question was about age not identity, moreover, scholars agree that the translation in Exo 3:14 is not "I am" but rather "I will be". Many translations understood Jesus answer to be in relation to his age and have translated the verse as such.

"I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." (The Living Bible)
"Before Abraham was, I existed." (New Living Translation, 1995 Edition)
"Before Abraham was, I already was." (Bible in Worldwide English)
"Before Abraham was, I have been." (New American Standard Bible, Footnote, 1960 and 1973 Edition)
"From before Abraham was, I have been." (The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.)
"I existed before Abraham was born!" (The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.)
"Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." (Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.)
"I was alive before Abraham was born!" (The Simple English Bible)

If you wish to convince others you must use convincing arguments, it's pointless regurgitating the same nonsense that has been debunked hundreds of times.

(John 10:30-34) I and the Father are one.” 31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself theos.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?

Jesus comparing the Jews to gods is a clear indicator that he using the fact that the Jews -who can rightly be called gods according to Pslams 82- who are a type of god(s) in defense of the fact of what type of god he was. If there are two people who are liars, and one tries to punish the other by suggesting he be put to death the perfect defense would be for the accused liar to say to the accuser "are you not also a liar" in order for the accuser to see that if he wishes to put him to death he too is deserving of death as he too is a liar.

Likewise, the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy by stating he was calling himself a god, Jesus in his own defense said to the Jews "are you not gods" so that they could see they were a type of god the same way he was. Jesus was answering the charge of blasphemy, he did so by calling others gods in his own defense of being gods son, NOT God himself. The Jews weren't accusing him of being God almighty but a god, we know this is true by Jesus answer. If the Jews were claiming Jesus was almighty God what Jesus said makes no sense, the account only makes sense if the Jews were calling Jesus a god.

[The Jews said] We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”. (This version makes littles sense as Jesus' answer to their charge isn't actually an answer, the Jews would have thought "well we aren't comparing you to the type of gods in Psalms 82 but almighty God, so again Jesus answer wouldn't have made any sense)

[The Jews said] We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”. (This DOES make sense as we can see Jesus making a comparison to their right to be called gods in his own defense of being a god, this IS an answer to the charge.)

If your argument is not convincing there no point in sharing it.
 

Right Divider

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Since we are Christians, Right Divider, Bright Raven, and myself do not/would not say such a thing. Obviously you, being a non-Christian, have no qualm about taking the LORD's name in vain in such manner as you are advocating, here, and in such manner as you are slanderously accusing Thomas of having done.
Isn't it both funny and sad when unbelief like his will try to twist the scripture so badly and plainly?

He actually blasphemes the Lord by claiming that he knew what was in the Lord's mind about what the Lord knew about what was in someone else's mind. Truly horrible what he does.
 
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7djengo7

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Same here.

Oh, I know--you too, JR--glad to say!


I think in this case, the word would be "libelously."

The distinction had, reflexively, crossed my mind for a split second, along with a sort of preemptive awareness of my disregarding it being potentially perceived as a faux pas; but, admittedly, as I've never really, for any of my purposes, taken that particular distinction all too seriously--thinking it to be of more relevance, or interest, to those speaking/writing in a law context--I went ahead with disregarding it.

Also, for aught I know, genuineoriginal perhaps composed the text of his post (wherein he committed his defamation of Thomas) not by entering it via keyboard, but by speaking into a microphone, and using a voice recognition program to convert his spoken words into text--slander-to-libel conversion technology, if you will.:Servent:
 

7djengo7

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Isn't it both funny and sad when unbelief like his will try to twist the scripture so badly and plainly?

He actually blasphemes the Lord by claiming that he knew what was in the Lord mind about what the Lord knew about what was in someone else's mind. Truly horrible what he does.

Yes, it is both funny and sad!

And genuineoriginal only missed being present for the occasion of the exchange between Christ and Thomas by about two millennia.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Neither of the examples you gave has Jesus saying he is God. The prhase "ego emi" (I am) is rife throughout John chapeter 8, throughout the chapter it always means "I am" how we understanding it in english:

v12 Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world.
v14 because I know where I came from and where I am going
v21 I am going away, and you will look for me
v21 Where I am going, you cannot come
v23 You are from this world; I am not from this world.
v26 the One who sent me is true, and the very things I heard from him I am speaking in the world

These are just a few occurrences out of 16 in the chapter, the question being asked to Jesus was "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?", Jesus replying "Jehovah/Yahweh" to that question makes no sense as the question was about age not identity, moreover, scholars agree that the translation in Exo 3:14 is not "I am" but rather "I will be". Many translations understood Jesus answer to be in relation to his age and have translated the verse as such.

"I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." (The Living Bible)
"Before Abraham was, I existed." (New Living Translation, 1995 Edition)
"Before Abraham was, I already was." (Bible in Worldwide English)
"Before Abraham was, I have been." (New American Standard Bible, Footnote, 1960 and 1973 Edition)
"From before Abraham was, I have been." (The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.)
"I existed before Abraham was born!" (The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.)
"Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." (Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.)
"I was alive before Abraham was born!" (The Simple English Bible)

If you wish to convince others you must use convincing arguments, it's pointless regurgitating the same nonsense that has been debunked hundreds of times.

(John 10:30-34) I and the Father are one.” 31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself theos.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?

Jesus comparing the Jews to gods is a clear indicator that he using the fact that the Jews -who can rightly be called gods according to Pslams 82- who are a type of god(s) in defense of the fact of what type of god he was. If there are two people who are liars, and one tries to punish the other by suggesting he be put to death the perfect defense would be for the accused liar to say to the accuser "are you not also a liar" in order for the accuser to see that if he wishes to put him to death he too is deserving of death as he too is a liar.

Likewise, the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy by stating he was calling himself a god, Jesus in his own defense said to the Jews "are you not gods" so that they could see they were a type of god the same way he was. Jesus was answering the charge of blasphemy, he did so by calling others gods in his own defense of being gods son, NOT God himself. The Jews weren't accusing him of being God almighty but a god, we know this is true by Jesus answer. If the Jews were claiming Jesus was almighty God what Jesus said makes no sense, the account only makes sense if the Jews were calling Jesus a god.

[The Jews said] We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”. (This version makes littles sense as Jesus' answer to their charge isn't actually an answer, the Jews would have thought "well we aren't comparing you to the type of gods in Psalms 82 but almighty God, so again Jesus answer wouldn't have made any sense)

[The Jews said] We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”. (This DOES make sense as we can see Jesus making a comparison to their right to be called gods in his own defense of being a god, this IS an answer to the charge.)

If your argument is not convincing there no point in sharing it.

There is no argument that could possibly convince you and so you can stick your condescending attitude right where...well...nevermind.
I'll post anything I want to post whether you like it not. I neither request nor require your permission and I certainly don't do a single thing based on whether drooling morons find what I have to say convincing.

Besides, I didn't say it anyway! I didn't write the bible! It was the Apostle John who wrote that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to be God not me. And that is precisely what the text says, in any language you want to read it in and that is precisely what Jesus was doing and He did it precisely for the purpose of making the Jews go crazy! Him being killed was part of the plan, after all, and they weren't going to do that because He was a "good teacher" and a nice guy.t

Don't bother responding to this post. I won't read it. You, like virtually everyone else on this site, are too big a waste of my time.

Clete
 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
The prhase "ego emi" (I am) is rife throughout John chapeter 8, throughout the chapter it always means "I am"

Out of the one side of your mouth, you just got done admitting that ego eimi, throughout John 8, "always means 'I am'"--which, of course, includes the ego eimi of verse 58--and yet, out of the other side of your mouth, you contradict what you just admitted, rejecting the KJV, the NIV, and others, giving instead several texts you prefer above the former, preferring them because they have NOT translated ego eimi:

"I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." (The Living Bible)
"Before Abraham was, I existed." (New Living Translation, 1995 Edition)
"Before Abraham was, I already was." (Bible in Worldwide English)
"Before Abraham was, I have been." (New American Standard Bible, Footnote, 1960 and 1973 Edition)
"From before Abraham was, I have been." (The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.)
"I existed before Abraham was born!" (The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.)
"Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." (Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.)
"I was alive before Abraham was born!" (The Simple English Bible)


Not a single one of these bogus "renderings" of John 8:58 you've handed out features a translation of ego eimi.

"I am" is a translation of ego eimi, whereas,

"I was in existence" is not a translation of ego eimi.
"I existed" is not a translation of ego eimi.
"I already was" is not a translation of ego eimi.
"I have been" is not a translation of ego eimi.
"I existed" is not a translation of ego eimi.
"I was already the one that I am" is not a translation of ego eimi.
"I was alive" is not a translation of ego eimi.

So, while you give lip service to the fact that ego eimi always means "I am", yet you despise that very fact, and prefer to try to hide it by having ego eimi left untranslated, as it is left untranslated in these fake Bible verses you've handed us.

Why do you consider it better to leave ego eimi, in John 8:58, untranslated, than to translate it?

In the last joke you listed--the text you quoted from "The Simple English Bible"--what Greek word(s), from the Greek of John 8:58, was/were translated "was alive"? Please tell.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Christians [...] do not/would not say such a thing.
Of course Christians would and do say "My God" as an exclamation of suprise.
Your arbitrary rules about what "Christians" would and would not do shows that you lack critical thinking skills.

Obviously you, being a non-Christian, have no qualm about taking the LORD's name
Where have I taken the name of YHVH in vain?
Do you even know the name of YHVH?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Trinitarians do not presuppose, with anti-Christ heretics such as yourself, that the Bible is silent about the Trinity
I was raised to believe in the Trinity, then I studied the Bible and found that the Bible is silent.
It is not a presupposition, as you claim, it is the result of the kind of work you do not seem to want to do.

Paul commended the believers who searched the scriptures to find out if what they were taught was true.
I am a believer who has searched the scriptures to find out if what I was taught was true, and I found out that many of the things I was taught were never taught in the Bible.
 

7djengo7

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Of course Christians would and do say "My God" as an exclamation of suprise.
Your arbitrary rules about what "Christians" would and would not do shows that you lack critical thinking skills.


Where have I taken the name of YHVH in vain?
Do you even know the name of YHVH?

Since you are an anti-Christ, a non-Christian, every time you speak or write "God" or "YHVH", you are taking God's name in vain.

But, again, notice how you have never answered the questions I asked you yesterday:

You had written:

The Bible never ever teaches that we are to believe that Jesus is God,

And I asked you,
"By your word, "God", here, are you referring to God the Father? Yes or No?"

Yes or No?

but the Bible teaches over and over that we are to believe that God sent His Son and that Jesus is the Son of God.

And I asked you,
"By your word, "God", here, are you referring to God the Father? Yes or No?"

Yes or No?

Why can't you answer these questions?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
if you mistakenly believe that Thomas is doing anything other than rightly calling Jesus his God, then you are saying that Thomas was blaspheming God.
The only logical possibility was that Thomas was not blaspheming God, but was calling Jesus God.
There is a logical fallacy called a "false dichotomy" which means that an argument is presented as having only two valid choices.

Do you really think someone who has spent the last three years with the one who taught the law of Moses, which includes "“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" would just all of a sudden blaspheme God?
Is your argument based on the premise that someone who has spent the last three years with the one who taught the true law God gave to Moses doesn't even know what that commandment means?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
The notion that anyone could deny that Jesus claimed to be God is asinine in the extreme.
There is no proof that Jesus ever claimed to be God but there is a lot of proof that Jesus was the Son of God.
Why do you want to deny the actual claims of Jesus in favor of a claim He never made?


John 10:36
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 
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