Jesus is God

[Sancocho]

You are comparing apples to oranges to hide the truth. All one has to do is look at mother Europe, the birthplace of Trinitarianism, to see what sort of fruit such teachings have produced. And what do we see in mother Europe after seventeen hundred years of Trinitarianism? A society that has already crumbled, collapsed into the dark ages, attempted to climb back up out of the pit, and yet is once again on the verge of collapse and massive upheaval. And do the mothers of mother Europe kill their babies as they do in Amerika? Do the fathers of mother Europe practice sorcery, witchcraft, pornography, prostitution, and every sort of decadence and debauchery? You betcha. But in the next reset mother Europe will be lucky if the hoards of the Mongols are not hunting Trinitarians for lack of food; for their own sons will be their judges, and they have been producing offspring of vipers for far longer than any other. :chuckle:

Europe is almost as bad as the US. Nonetheless, the claim that Trinitariansim is the cause is baseless.

The cause is the rejection of the Church and the replacement with nationalism and/or incomplete versions of the Gospel.

This can be easily demonstrated by looking at the social indicators of countries with a comprehensive Concordat that prohibits child sacrifice, prostitution and homosexual indoctrination. For this reason Catholic countries are the most peaceful countries in the world by a large margin.

 

[THall]

You forgot that he is the Lamb of God, the sacrifice to please God for our sins. Is God his own sacrifice?

No I did not forget, just thought this discussion
is about what Jesus is, not what he was.

 

[StanJ]

Please provide any references to refute my claim.

This is typical keypurr...condescending dismissiveness and NOTHING else.

 

[StanJ]

It is one of my favorite passages from a biblical scholar because the guy is writing a poetic statement of his own faith instead of putting down actual historical data (for example, we do not know if Jesus specifically said "Follow thou me," etc.).
Sometimes poetic and sacred language point to truth much more effectively than logic or rationality, don't you think?

Well I am SURE Jesus never said "Follow thou me", but I do get your point.

 

[StanJ]

I know exactly what I stated:
There is no "was" in this statement:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4371357&postcount=3393

 

[daqq]

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4371357&postcount=3393

Once again you show your ignorance by repeating the same thing you said before. You are incorrect about "eimi" at the end of that verse. It is not "was" but rather, what is at the end of John 8:58, is "ego eimi" which is "I am". So are you now basically "doubling down" and asserting your error that Yeshua never said "I am" in John 8:58? Did he rather say "I was" according to your illustrious reading of the text, O wise one? :chuckle:

 

[StanJ]

Your problem is you do not see the Spiritual being Christ.
That is different from the Spirit of Christ.
Your locked into traditional fables, you will never progress in theology until you separate yourself to open your mind.

Well if I can't see why can't you answer my questions instead of all your condescending ad hominem? What I'm LOCKED into is God's written word, which you CAN'T refute or even bother trying to answer.

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

 

[StanJ]

Once again you show your ignorance by repeating the same thing you said before. You are incorrect about "eimi" at the end of that verse. It is not "was" but rather, what is at the end of John 8:58, is "ego eimi" which is "I am". So are you now basically "doubling down" and asserting your error that Yeshua never said "I am" in John 8:58? Did he rather say "I was" according to your illustrious reading of the text, O wise one?

It's not surprising you can't see truth when it stares at you in the face. Maybe you should ask somebody who knows how to read with comprehension and without bias to 'splain it to you?
That you thinks all Greek words only have one connotation or use just illuminates your sorely lacking skills at basic proper exegesis.

 

[Sancocho]

This is typical keypurr...condescending dismissiveness and NOTHING else.

In our journey to increase our faith we must test every theory and claim against our best understanding of the Gospel. In my own walk I have never rejected any claim at first glance(other than ridiculous ones like there is no God) because I wanted to know the Truth of God's plan for us. This led me to question my Catholic beliefs and attend Protestant churches for many years.

I am not saying anyone needs be Catholic to go to heaven but to embrace the truth and Christian fellowship wherever one is on their path to the Truth. Disqualifying others from the Body of Christ because of their lack of understanding of the Gospel or doctrine is one of the worst sins we can commit because it undermines Christian fellowship and then eventually society as we are seeing in America. Unfortunately, people believe that because the Holy Spirit has worked in their life that their understanding of the Gospel is pristine. Pride cometh before the fall every time.

 

[StanJ]

In our journey to increase our faith we must test every theory and claim against our best understanding of the Gospel. In my own walk I have never rejected any claim at first glance(other than ridiculous ones like there is no God) because I wanted to know the Truth of God's plan for us. This led me to question my Catholic beliefs and attend Protestant churches for many years.

I am not saying anyone needs be Catholic to go to heaven but to embrace the truth and Christian fellowship wherever one is on their path to the Truth. Disqualifying others from the Body of Christ because of their lack of understanding of the Gospel or doctrine is one of the worst sins we can commit because it undermines Christian fellowship and then eventually society as we are seeing in America. Unfortunately, people believe that because the Holy Spirit has worked in their life that their understanding of the Gospel is pristine. Pride cometh before the fall every time.

I was born and raised RCC, and I discovered at 17, when I was saved, that they were full of false teaching. I could not stay where all this false teaching was occurring. I actually felt a lot of it was wrong based on what I did know of the Bible at that point, but my salvation gave me the spirit of boldness to move out of it, into the light of the TRUE gospel.

If a person CLAIMS to be a part of the BOC, and does NOT believe what the Bible and the Holy Spirit teaches then, then indeed they are disqualified from actually being in it. To accept Jesus as our Savior and God and then to backslide or become apostate, is sad, but within a persons control. If that person decides to go AGAINST what they first believed then they are to be treated as false teachers. We are warned in Rev 2, to NOT leave our first love, and yet MANY do.

 

[Sancocho]

I was born and raised RCC, and I discovered at 17, when I was saved, that they were full of false teaching. I could not stay where all this false teaching was occurring. I actually felt a lot of it was wrong based on what I did know of the Bible at that point, but my salvation gave me the spirit of boldness to move out of it, into the light of the TRUE gospel.

If a person CLAIMS to be a part of the BOC, and does NOT believe what the Bible and the Holy Spirit teaches then, then indeed they are disqualified from actually being in it. To accept Jesus as our Savior and God and then to backslide or become apostate, is sad, but within a persons control. If that person decides to go AGAINST what they first believed then they are to be treated as false teachers. We are warned in Rev 2, to NOT leave our first love, and yet MANY do.

With all due respect I believed like you did what was said about the RCC. Unlike you apparently I have taken the time to research all the claims. I had no qualms or prejudices in choosing my faith, I only wanted to know the Truth. At no point in my faith did I ever consider a fellow Christian who loves and serves Christ to the best of their ability or given doctrine to be an apostate, only that they don't know the complete truth as I would never pretend that Jesus belongs to my denomination alone.

 

[daqq]

It's not surprising you can't see truth when it stares at you in the face. Maybe you should ask somebody who knows how to read with comprehension and without bias to 'splain it to you?
That you thinks all Greek words only have one connotation or use just illuminates your sorely lacking skills at basic proper exegesis.

The truth? I have not seen that from you. Why do you not then go ahead and render the verse for us all so that we may actually see your version of the truth. Here it is, and I will post the link YET AGAIN, so that everyone is on the same page as to what the Greek text states:

John 8:58
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm

Would you like to render the entire verse or just the portion in question?
Here is the portion in question:

πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Please show us all how εἰμί ("eimi") at the end of this passage is "was" as you have now stated to be the case on more than one occasion. Please render at least the portion in question which I have quoted and highlighted in yellow above.

:sheep:

 

[StanJ]

With all due respect I believed like you did what was said about the RCC. Unlike you apparently I have taken the time to research all the claims. I had no qualms or prejudices in choosing my faith, I only wanted to know the Truth. At no point in my faith did I ever consider a fellow Christian who loves and serves Christ to the best of their ability or given doctrine to be an apostate, only that they don't know the complete truth as I would never pretend that Jesus belongs to my denomination alone.

I have no problem with anyone staying in the RCC, but THAT is not our faith. Our Faith is in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. if you look on this site you will find that many in the RCC defend IT and not God or His written Word.
Apostate is when you DO or HAVE know the true faith and decide that was not it Heb 6:4-6 (NIV)
If one claims to have received salvation from Jesus our God and Savior, then decides afterwards that Jesus is not God, that is apostasism, and the Bible teaches us that MANY will fall away from the true faith in Christ.
Jesus is the HEAD of the BODY of Christ. That body is composed of true believers, regardless of denomination, but I chose my denomination because some are false teachers, as is the RCC. I don't condemn anyone who confesses Jesus as their God and Savior, regardless of denomination.

 

[StanJ]

The truth? I have not seen that from you. Why do you not then go ahead and render the verse for us all so that we may actually see your version of the truth. Here it is, and I will post the link YET AGAIN, so that everyone is on the same page as to what the Greek text states:

John 8:58
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm

Would you like to render the entire verse or just the portion in question?
Here is the portion in question:

πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Please show us all how εἰμί ("eimi") at the end of this passage is "was" as you have now stated to be the case on more than one occasion. Please render at least the portion in question which I have quoted and highlighted in yellow above.

Because you are apostate and cannot SEE or UNDERSTAND the truth.
I on the other hand am not, but will not repeat myself constantly for your need to equivocate some more. You said what you said and I refuted you. I don't really care what you feel about it or how much you prevaricate.

 

[daqq]

Because you are apostate and cannot SEE or UNDERSTAND the truth.
I on the other hand am not, but will not repeat myself constantly for your need to equivocate some more. You said what you said and I refuted you. I don't really care what you feel about it or how much you prevaricate.

 

[Sancocho]

Because you are apostate and cannot SEE or UNDERSTAND the truth..

So everyone who disagrees with you is an Apostate? Is it possible they might be confused or not have a good understanding of the Gospel?? What happened to giving the people the benefit of the doubt?

 

[StanJ]

So everyone who disagrees with you is an Apostate? Is it possible they might be confused or not have a good understanding of the Gospel?? What happened to giving the people the benefit of the doubt?

So you don't understand modern clear English?

 

[Sancocho]

So you don't understand modern clear English?

Do you propose that anyone who doesn't have the same doctrinal beliefs or interpretations of the Gospel as you is an apostate?

 

[keypurr]

You are projecting your lack of understanding and rebellious attitude on me.

Not so, I have nothing against you. I just do not agree with what you say or anything your church has to say.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem and is before Abraham.

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."

Jesus was not in existence until he was born, however, he was given a spiritual anointing at his baptism. The express image of God is a spiritual form of God. This spirit spoke through Jesus. This spirit was at the creation, Jesus was not.

 

[keypurr]

No I did not forget, just thought this discussion
is about what Jesus is, not what he was.

That was meant to get others to think a little friend.

We both know that Jesus was a man.