Right Divider
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Falsely accusing my will not work. I don't fall for your lies.
My mind is fully open to the truth, but not to your heretical lies.
Jesus is God !
- Thread starter beloved57
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Right Divider
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Firstly, I never called you a snake or a viper. I was using an example of the way that the Lord Jesus Christ treated those that oppose Him... like you.
You are wrong at every angle there and I do not accept your forgiveness, since I'm right about you and you're (or as you would put it, "your") wrong about me.
Lon
Well-known member
Well, you are pretty mean to them then. All he asked for was 'scripture' not a quote from the catechism. Your angst is showing.
LOL, you don't read Greek, Keypurr!
Your angst is showing again.
How could we not understand 'my God.' Jesus called from the cross Eloi Eloi lama Sabachthani?
Simply tie it to John 20:28 and John 1:1. All of these scriptures are 'right' not wrong. That is all a Trinitarian insists. If you ever got that, you'd get it all. You didn't have an 'ah ha' moment later in life if you never grasped and honored John 1:1,3,14;20:28 You cannot have an 'ah ha' moment that undoes or damages scripture. You've never shown that your view doesn't indeed, do damage. As for as the 'rest of us' good people with grammar skills, we haven't seen it. Not that it'd have to take brilliance, but it'd help AND it'd have to be incredibly clear. It isn't, frankly, which means there can but be 'tentative Unitarians.' I don't believe there can be such a thing as a staunch Unitarian because frankly, scripture itself doesn't (Cannot) allow it. It is impossible but for a few disconnected ideas (which is why I question reading ability in Unitarians all the time, it is a necessary part of the conversation).
There is no 'holiness' to be staunchly ignorant. I've been convinced about things until the day I found out I was wrong. Sometimes it is because we WANT a thing to be true, but that does not make it so. For this reason, Grammar, from God, is the best place to build on what we DO know. It is why I've always stated that 'triune' is the better expression. There ARE times in scripture that call Father, Son, and Spirit God, and also that there is only One God. Simply ACCEPTING these two truths, given clearly in scripture, IS the triune position.
I don't pray for your 'forgiveness' here. I pray for you to actually get and understand, CLEARLY, what I'm saying to you. In Him -Lon
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keypurr
Well-known member
You are a judge, the judgement will come back to you but not by me. You know who.
keypurr
Well-known member
Did not Jesus say that all his power was given to him? Did not Jesus say he was going to HIS God? Think JR, there might be something you missed.
keypurr
Well-known member
Your mind needs an overhaul. But its OK with me if you think differently, I will not call you names.
keypurr
Well-known member
Don't try to change your words RD, you implied it.
keypurr
Well-known member
Hi Lon, hope things are well with you. We disagree a lot but I still think your classy. Let my ask you a question: John 1:1 do you think the word is Jesus? If so, what came with the dove at his baptism? What or who needed a body prepared for him/it in Heb 10:5? What does Acts 10:36 tell you? I really would like your thoughts on these verses.
Lon
Well-known member
Has to be, the Word became flesh. There is only One who became flesh: Jesus.
According to John? John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”
How about Mark 1:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Then Luke 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Thus there was no dove, see?
Right AND as we discussed previously, scripture says he 'humbled himself taking on the form of a man.' What does it mean
It MEANS a triune view is what necessarily has to fit. If you are a Unitarian, scripture demands you are one only 'lightly' because you'd literally have to destroy scripture. Trinitarians half agree with Unitarians, and modalists and Jews.Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
Depends on what you read, or conversely are reading into it. It says "God" sent the message. "Through" Jesus Christ is very closely connected to "God" as His aspect 'through.' It isn't a great verse, thus, for being Unitarian or Triune. This isn't the verse where that takes place. John 1:1 and John 20:28 definitely are. There is no other way to explain these two verses adequately. -Lon
Say the one who is making a veiled condemnation of me.
Stop being a hypocrite, Keypurr!
You quoted RD, not me. Pay attention!
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
There's no trouble with the rendering of LOGOS as the Word, but let's see some other variants of the rendering and see if it brings any clarity:
Original
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The Voice
In the beginning was the Voice, and the Voice was with God, and the Voice was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Speech
In the beginning was Speech, and Speech was with God, and Speech was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Language
In the beginning was Language, and Language was with God, and Language was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Logic
In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Now verse 14:
And the Word / the Voice / Speech / Language / Logic was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Is there any question Who is "flesh" in verse 14? Is there any question that we're talking about Christ here?
Original
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The Voice
In the beginning was the Voice, and the Voice was with God, and the Voice was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Speech
In the beginning was Speech, and Speech was with God, and Speech was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Language
In the beginning was Language, and Language was with God, and Language was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Logic
In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Now verse 14:
And the Word / the Voice / Speech / Language / Logic was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Is there any question Who is "flesh" in verse 14? Is there any question that we're talking about Christ here?
Lon
Well-known member
we agree and have thought about this. Jesus called the Father "God." ??? He is. In Philippians 2 Jesus 'emptied himself.' Power ("authority," in Matthew 28:18, "over the gospel" (did you perhaps miss that?) What is the thing missed? : idunno: Try and remember, your previous understanding wasn't triune. It was more tritheism/modalism disconnected. Triune, on all your above verses, share in the truth of these scriptures BUT we try and not make OUR assumptions part of the formula for understanding scriptures. There is a careful wade and until one reads all of God's description of Himself in scripture, we must stave off summary.
keypurr
Well-known member
Thanks for your opinion. To set the record straight before I rebut understand me and what I believe and why. Who is Jesus? He is my Lord and my Savior, but not my God for I believe only the Father is the true God.
The WORD in John 1:1 is not flesh, it became FLESH, Jesus was flesh. So the WORD is something else. I see it as a spirit, the true son of the most high, the son who was given the fullness of his creator. Jesus is also a son of God but not the son who was at the creation. The Aramaic translation calls this spirit the Miltha, This is the Son mentioned in Col 1:15 who was given the power of his Father,
The dove (spirit) came to Jesus at his anointing, Acts 10:38 tell us that. This is when the spirit son became one with the flesh son, this is when God said that this was his son. Jesus did not pre-exist but the spirit IN him did. Jesus had to be a human to be the sacrifice.
Right AND as we discussed previously, scripture says he 'humbled himself taking on the form of a man.' What does it mean
Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
Depends on what you read, or conversely are reading into it. It says "God" sent the message. "Through" Jesus Christ is very closely connected to "God" as His aspect 'through.' It isn't a great verse, thus, for being Unitarian or Triune. This isn't the verse where that takes place. John 1:1 and John 20:28 definitely are. There is no other way to explain these two verses adequately. -Lon
That spirit son is the first of all creatures/creation in Col 1:15, proof that he is not God. Phil 2 call him/it a FORM of God for it was created and given the fullness of his Father.
We agree the Dove was a very special spirit, for it spoke through the body prepared for it to bring us light and understanding of God. Heb 10:5
Right AND as we discussed previously, scripture says he 'humbled himself taking on the form of a man.' What does it mean
Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
Depends on what you read, or conversely are reading into it. It says "God" sent the message. "Through" Jesus Christ is very closely connected to "God" as His aspect 'through.' It isn't a great verse, thus, for being Unitarian or Triune. This isn't the verse where that takes place. John 1:1 and John 20:28 definitely are. There is no other way to explain these two verses adequately. -Lon
my goof, Acts 10:38, Jesus received the Holy Spirit and POWER. That is when I believe Jesus became the Christ.
What I see is a body was prepared to hold someone of very special. That body was Jesus, the stainless flesh son of God.
I hope you will ponder on my thoughts, if I am wrong show me. Thanks for your answers.
keypurr
Well-known member
Note:
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Most overlook the word IN. What was IN Jesus Christ. That dove spirit the true son God sent.
Lon
Well-known member
Let's look together:
Philippians 2:3,4
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Do not let each man look upon his own things, but each man also on the things of others.
Okay, Paul has just told us what we are supposed to do and what kind of 'thinking' (looking not only to our own interests, but being selfless).
Next:
Php 2:5 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So, what kind of mind? One that sacrificed willingly and looked to other's interests.
Did "IN" help Keypurr with something significant then? No. It didn't. It is contextual wording that says the love Jesus 'had' (substituted for 'in' here) should be the love you 'have.' The significance isn't some anti-trinitarian doctrine. That'd be (and is) weird, Keypurr.
Spirit 'like a dove' is an analogy that Jesus' baptism was a moment where God's Spirit was evident 'in' HIm. "In" is difficult because Christ dwells 'in' me, but someone might say 'there is talent "in" Lon.' Such doesn't mean they weren't talking about my trait and my being. It doesn't help here for it to be 'overlooked.' I think 'some' (Keypurr) put too much stalk where grammar needs a more careful read and grasp. -Lon.
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What do you know about the Trinity? Do you think Jesus did not create the universe and everything in it? Do you doubt what the Bible says in one passage because of your misinterpretation of another passage?
- Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were createdby him, and for him:
- Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
keypurr
Well-known member
Sorry JR, Forgive my old age please.
Lon I can not disagree more with you on the word IN in verse 2:5
Col 1:15 is very clear that the son is a creation. The first of all creatures/creation.
Jesus said that all power was given to him, God does not need to be given anything.
I am aware that my grammar and spelling are not what they should be but like the fisherman Peter God has blessed me with the faith I have. Many years ago the church filled itself with false doctrins, today we can see where they were wrong.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Don't forget the Orthodox churches Keypurr. Catholicism and Orthodoxy together comprise 60% of all the world's Christians, and it's only in the other 40% where we find anybody who doesn't believe that God is the Trinity. And Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the only Christian traditions that date back to the Apostolic era Keypurr, don't forget about that either. The other 40% of Christian traditions were invented way after the Apostles walked the earth, but Catholicism and Orthodoxy both can trace their beginning to the Apostles. And both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are 100% fully Trinitarian. Don't forget.