Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[genuineoriginal]

You claim that "The Bible never states that.....", which is nothing other than to claim that the Bible is SILENT that....

So, from YOUR (false) CLAIM that the Bible is SILENT that....., you are attempting to ARGUE that Trinitarianism is false.

I know you are unable to understand.

The Bible never teaches that there is a Triune God, so any claims that the God of the Bible is a Triune God must be met with skepticism.
The Bible does teach that Jesus is the Son of God and that His Father is the God of the Old Testament scriptures, so any claim against that teaching must also be met with skepticism.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Psalm 110 changes from First-Person to Third-Person in the dialogue of Yahweh.

Thus....the only logical conclusion that one can arrive at is that Yahweh is more than one Person.

The only real logical conclusion is that the Psalmist quotes the words of YHWH in verses 1 and 4, but it is the Psalmist who is praising "my Lord" in the rest of the verses.

Hence, we have The Trinity.


Simple.

1 + 1 = Trinity?
What is missing?

 

[Dartman]

In some ways I take XYZ to be referring back to creation. Before God created light, He said, "Let there be light" (Ge1:3KJV), so either language itself was created, before light, or language itself is uncreated, and in this sense, is in some ways, how I think of XYZ.

John 1:1 KJV indicates that in at least one critical way, XYZ "was God," it wasn't as if God 'employed' XYZ, as if XYZ were a tool of His, or even a servant, no, John 1:1 KJV tells us that XYZ was God Himself, in at least one critical way.

And that XYZ is singular I think is significant. Before there were God's words, plural, there was God's XYZ, XYZ was the start of it all, and XYZ was there with God (Jn1:1KJV) in the beginning.

'Just food for thought is all. fwiw.

God's word is God's spirit/thinking/values/mentality/attitudes/wisdom.
Pro 8 tells us God possessed wisdom before the creation.
Gen 1 tells us God's spirit/ God's words were HOW God created the universe, He SAID "let there be..." and it happened. God's words were the SOURCE of the beginning..... God's words ARE an expression of God Himself.... they define His thinking, His spirit.
John 1 is stating these facts, AND that God Himself is light, is the light of the world, that God sent John the Baptist, AND later ... God sent Jesus, the flesh and blood fulfillment of God's logos, God's words/sayings.

 

[Idolater]

... Jesus, the flesh and blood fulfillment of God's logos, God's words/sayings.

OK, I accept that this is your view, but it includes some things that are not in the Scripture, which only says "XYZ was made flesh" (Jn1:14KJV), not the "fulfillment of God's XYZ" was made flesh, nor the "fulfillment of God's words /sayings" was made flesh. You add those. All the Scripture says is, "XYZ was made flesh."

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is about worship , If Jesus is not God he is not to be worshiped.

You are allowing modern American sentimentality to cloud your judgment.

The wise men came to worship Jesus as the new born King.

Matthew 2:2 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.​

The Canaanite woman worshiped Jesus as Lord.

Matthew 15:25 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.​

Your argument is based on the idea that only God can be worshiped.
If that is so, then why is Jesus going to make the fake Jews worship the people of the church in Philadelphia?

Revelation 3:7-9 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

 

[JudgeRightly]

The only real logical conclusion is that the Psalmist quotes the words of YHWH in verses 1 and 4, but it is the Psalmist who is praising "my Lord" in the rest of the verses.


1 + 1 = Trinity?
What is missing?

When you try to reduce God to a mathematical equation, you've missed the point entirely.

You are allowing modern American sentimentality to cloud your judgment.

The wise men came to worship the new born King.

Matthew 2:2 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.​

The Canaanite woman worshiped Jesus as Lord.

Matthew 15:25 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.​

Your argument is based on the idea that only God can be worshiped.

No one here has said that others besides God can be worshipped.

However, the only one WORTHY of worship is God.

If Jesus is not God, then He, if He is righteous, should have told anyone who worshipped Him that it was wrong to do so, just as any perfect angel rejected worship when someone tried to do so, just like any righteous man did the same.

However, if Jesus IS God, then there is nothing wrong with worshipping Him, because He is worthy of it.

If that is so, then why is Jesus going to make the fake Jews worship the people of the church in Philadelphia?

Revelation 3:7-9 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

Does the verse say who is being worshipped? No, it does not.

Anyone can worship anywhere, but it does not mean that they are worshipping whatever or whoever they are in front of.

In other words, one can worship before an altar, and not be worshipping the altar.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I'm a former Unitarian. I believed that based strictly on an interpretation of the Bible, that Trinitarianism was unwarranted, and instead believed in Unitarianism.

I also know from being a former Unitarian that there are some major concerns with the interpretation, and it's mainly because of multiple passages in the Gospel of John, starting right at "the beginning" (John 1:1 KJV), and multiple Pauline passages, and some others here and there. I was conscious of the concerns, but they didn't therefore necessarily mean to me that Trinitarianism was instead correct.

I know my faith in God was genuine then, I considered myself and identified as Christian.

I believe that my reading of 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV conforms to the authentic Christian faith, that believing in Christ is tantamount to believing in His Resurrection, and vice versa. I further believe that based upon this, and upon my own experience while a Unitarian, that Unitarians who believe in Christ's Resurrection are in fact my siblings in Christ---authentic Christians---however wayward in others points of doctrine I believe them to be. Christ's Resurrection is the thing, the one thing needful, to believe to be a Christian.

Thank you for this.
:thumb:

So how do you think of Trinitarians? I believe that you believe in Christ's Resurrection, and so you are my sibling in Christ, but you must believe that I am an idolater, correct? Because I believe that Christ is God. Since you do not believe that He is God, then according to your view, I must be an idolater, correct?

Do you think that this alleged Trinitarian idolatry is fatal to our salvation?

I think Trinitarians are confused by the power and authority of Jesus the Christ.
There is only one with more power and authority than Jesus the Christ: God the Father who gave Jesus the Christ His power and authority.
There is only one King higher than Jesus the Christ: God the Father who gave Jesus the Christ His kingdom.
Jesus the Christ is the divine Son of God, and I think He will be forgiving towards those sincere Christians who can't tell the difference between being the Son of God and being God Himself.

Being now theologically Catholic, and approving of praying to Mary (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art though among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb Jesus, Holy Mary...), I'm used to being accused of idolatry. Protestants accuse us of worshiping Mary, and of being idolaters because of this.

Do Protestants believe that Catholics who pray to Mary are damned because of this alleged idolatry?

We know that Jesus ascended into the heavens (Acts 1:9-10) and that Jesus is both our mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) and our intercessor (Romans 8:34)
Mary is neither our mediator nor our intercessor, so praying to Mary is either a completely wasted effort or is a damnable heresy.

 

[Idolater]

Thank you for this.
:thumb:

De nada.

I think Trinitarians are confused by the power and authority of Jesus the Christ.
There is only one with more power and authority than Jesus the Christ: God the Father who gave Jesus the Christ His power and authority.
There is only one King higher than Jesus the Christ: God the Father who gave Jesus the Christ His kingdom.
Jesus the Christ is the divine Son of God, and I think He will be forgiving towards those sincere Christians who can't tell the difference between being the Son of God and being God Himself.

Then I think that we agree that 'sincere Christians' are those who believe in Christ's Resurrection, Unitarian or Trinitarian. We are all doing our best to serve our Lord, regardless of our differences of theological opinion in every other matter. Although it does to me seem very Christian to believe theology that doesn't easily or lightly condemn others, especially those believe that they are Christians, no matter how wayward we may think others are in their theology.

We know that Jesus ascended into the heavens (Acts 1:9-10) and that Jesus is both our mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) and our intercessor (Romans 8:34)
Mary is neither our mediator nor our intercessor, so praying to Mary is either a completely wasted effort or is a damnable heresy.

It depends what you mean by 'damnable.' If it is wrong to pray to Mary, then I'd agree that it's 'damnable heresy' to do it or to approve it, but it doesn't mean that one who wrongly believes that it's licit is thereby damned also; it's the heresy itself that'd be damned, in the case that praying to Mary is illicit.

Now I don't have any reason to think that you'd find it 'damnable' in either meaning, to ask a friend to pray for you. And perhaps you don't believe that souls in heaven can hear us here on earth. But when we pray to Mary, we believe that she can hear us, and that we are only asking her to pray for us in the same way that we ask a friend to pray for us.

And we believe that of all those praying to the Lord, that His mother is still the one who's got His ear first of all, just as she had His ear when she and He were on the earth together (e.g. Jn2:3KJV Jn2:7-8KJV).

 

[genuineoriginal]

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He is IN His Father's Throne.

Jesus is with His Father in His Father's throne.

Please note: God doesn't share His Glory with ANYONE. Jesus, ergo: MUST be God!!!

If God Almighty does not share His Glory with ANYONE, why would you want to risk offending God Almighty by claiming that the Son of God is also God Almighty?

 

[genuineoriginal]

When you try to reduce God to a mathematical equation, you've missed the point entirely.

So, all Trinitarians have missed the point entirely?

No one here has said that others besides God can be worshipped.

However, the only one WORTHY of worship is God.

The Lamb is also WORTHY.

Revelation 5:12 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.​

If Jesus is not God, then He, if He is righteous, should have told anyone who worshipped Him that it was wrong to do so, just as any perfect angel rejected worship when someone tried to do so, just like any righteous man did the same.

Your opinion of what Jesus should have done, which is not supported by scripture, is noted and rejected as having any validity.
Jesus is Lord and King, and is worthy of worship because He is Lord and He is King.

However, if Jesus IS God, then there is nothing wrong with worshipping Him, because He is worthy of it.

Since Jesus is King, there is nothing wrong with worshiping Him.
Since Jesus is Lord, there is nothing wrong with worshiping Him.

Trying to claim that Jesus must be God because people worshiped Him will always fail since people worship kings and lords and that does not make them gods.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It depends what you mean by 'damnable.'

I mean having your soul and body permanently destroyed in the lake of fire as opposed to being granted eternal life.

If it is wrong to pray to Mary, then I'd agree that it's 'damnable heresy' to do it or to approve it, but it doesn't mean that one who wrongly believes that it's licit is thereby damned also; it's the heresy itself that'd be damned, in the case that praying to Mary is illicit.

"The heresy itself" has no soul nor body that can be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire.
A damnable heresy is one that damns the people that believe it.

Now I don't have any reason to think that you'd find it 'damnable' in either meaning, to ask a friend to pray for you. And perhaps you don't believe that souls in heaven can hear us here on earth. But when we pray to Mary, we believe that she can hear us, and that we are only asking her to pray for us in the same way that we ask a friend to pray for us.

That makes it a completely wasted effort, since Mary is still in the grave and has not ascended to heaven.

The damnable heresy comes when you start praying to Mary as the divine queen of heaven.

According to ancient tradition and the sacred liturgy the main principle on which the royal dignity of Mary rests is without doubt her divine motherhood. In holy writ, concerning the son whom Mary will conceive, we read this sentence: “He shall be called the son of the most high, and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end,” and in addition Mary is called “Mother of the Lord,” from this it is easily concluded that she is a queen, since she bore a son who, at the very moment of his conception, because of the hypostatic union of the human nature with the Word, was also as man, king and lord of all things. So with complete justice St. John Damascene could write: “When she became mother of the creator, she truly became queen of every creature.” Likewise, it can be said that the heavenly voice of the Archangel Gabriel was the first to proclaim Mary’s royal office. ~Pope Pius XII - Ad Caeli Reginam, 34

​

 

[Idolater]

I mean having your soul and body permanently destroyed in the lake of fire as opposed to being granted eternal life.


"The heresy itself" has no soul nor body that can be permanently destroyed in the lake of fire.
A damnable heresy is one that damns the people that believe it.

Oh. So you believe that believing in the Trinity is not a damnable heresy, but that praying to Mary is? Or are you saying that those who believe in a damnable heresy are only saved by grace?

That makes it a completely wasted effort, since Mary is still in the grave and has not ascended to heaven.

OK, so you don't believe that she is in heaven now.

The damnable heresy comes when you start praying to Mary as the divine queen of heaven.

According to ancient tradition and the sacred liturgy the main principle on which the royal dignity of Mary rests is without doubt her divine motherhood. In holy writ, concerning the son whom Mary will conceive, we read this sentence: “He shall be called the son of the most high, and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end,” and in addition Mary is called “Mother of the Lord,” from this it is easily concluded that she is a queen, since she bore a son who, at the very moment of his conception, because of the hypostatic union of the human nature with the Word, was also as man, king and lord of all things. So with complete justice St. John Damascene could write: “When she became mother of the creator, she truly became queen of every creature.” Likewise, it can be said that the heavenly voice of the Archangel Gabriel was the first to proclaim Mary’s royal office. ~Pope Pius XII - Ad Caeli Reginam, 34

​

I don't have any problem with the logic in that. Christ Jesus is a king, and she is His mother, so that does make her a queen mother.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Oh. So you believe that believing in the Trinity is not a damnable heresy

Correct.
I don't see any reason for people to be denied salvation for confusing Jesus' power and authority for God's power and authority considering how much power and authority God gave Jesus.

Oh. So you believe that believing in the Trinity is not a damnable heresy, but that praying to Mary is? Or are you saying that those who believe in a damnable heresy are only saved by grace?

I don't have any problem with the logic in that. Christ Jesus is a king, and she is His mother, so that does make her a queen mother.

If you pray to Mary as the divine queen of heaven, that is a damnable heresy.
Mere logic is not a good excuse for believing Mary has any power, any authority, or any special influence on Jesus.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So, all Trinitarians have missed the point entirely?

If you're trying to make an accusation, you really ought to provide evidence to support your claim, instead of making ad hominem attacks.

The Lamb is also WORTHY.

Revelation 5:12 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.​

Your opinion of what Jesus should ha, which is not supported by scripture, is noted and rejected as having any validity.
Jesus is Lord and King, and is worthy of worship because He is Lord and He is King.


Since Jesus is King, there is nothing wrong with worshiping Him.
Since Jesus is Lord, there is nothing wrong with worshiping Him.

Trying to claim that Jesus must be God because people worshiped Him will always fail since people worship kings and lords and that does not make them gods.

Being worshipped does not imply that one is worthy of it. You wrongly keep assuming that.

You seem to have forgotten this:

“You shall have no other gods before Me.“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, - Exodus 20:3-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:3-5&version=NKJV

If Jesus is not God, then He is not worthy of being worshipped.

If He is God, He is worthy of worship.

The Bible says He is worthy of being worshipped.

Therefore, He is God.

The Lamb is worthy because He is God, not because He is the Lamb or because He is King.

You seem to have missed the context of Revelation 5:12.

Allow me to present it to you:

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?”And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb[/U], forever and ever!”Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. - Revelation 5:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation5:1-14&version=NKJV

RECALL:

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. - Acts 20:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts20:28&version=NKJV

Notice that God redeemed the church with His blood.

Notice that Christ purchased the church with His blood.

Purchase and redeem have similar meanings. (Granted, two different words are used in Revelation 5:9 and Acts 20:28, but they have similar meaning.)

The point is that God alone is worthy of worship.

No one else is worthy, even if they are worshipped.

The Bible, in that it is truth (in it's original manuscripts), says that the lamb is worthy, even though only God is the only one worthy of worship. Either the Bible was lying (not possible), or an error crept into the Bible (such a serious error is not likely, due to the error correcting mechanisms inherent in the Bible that prevent the major points of scripture from being perverted), or Jesus, the Lamb of God, is God, because He is worthy of worship.

 

[Idolater]

Correct.
I don't see any reason for people to be denied salvation for confusing Jesus' power and authority for God's power and authority considering how much power and authority God gave Jesus.

OK fair enough.

If you pray to Mary as the divine queen of heaven, that is a damnable heresy.
Mere logic is not a good excuse for believing Mary has any power, any authority, or any special influence on Jesus.

Catholics and Orthodox don't believe Mary has any power or authority, and that she has the ear of the Lord, is based in part upon scriptural example.

No Catholics or Orthodox believe that Mary is in any way God. Therefore it is simply incorrect to accuse Catholics or Orthodox of worshiping Mary when praying to her. We do not worship Mary.

Even though you are arguing that it would be licit to worship her as royalty, if she is royalty /a queen, Catholics and Orthodox only worship God, and Mary is in no way God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Right Divider,

Please quote the scripture that says that those apostles will sit IN HIS FATHERS throne. You have throne confusion.

I was simply using Aimiel’s logic “He is IN His Father's Throne. Please note: God doesn't share His Glory with ANYONE. Jesus, ergo: MUST be God!!!”. God the Father is God and does not share his glory with anyone, and to sit in God the Father’s throne is to share God’s glory. If, as Trinitarians claim, Jesus is God, then to sit in Jesus’ throne is to share Jesus’ glory, then unless you believe that God the Son is more generous than God the Father, then you have a problem.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dartman]

OK, I accept that this is your view, but it includes some things that are not in the Scripture, which only says "XYZ was made flesh" (Jn1:14KJV), not the "fulfillment of God's XYZ" was made flesh, nor the "fulfillment of God's words /sayings" was made flesh. You add those. All the Scripture says is, "XYZ was made flesh."

What benefit do you think is provided by substituting "XYZ" for "logos"? We have a WONDERFUL proof of the meaning of "logos" here;
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,...
John 2:22 ...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life ...
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:52 .. thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:55 ... I know him, and keep his saying.
John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,..
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, .. hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: ...
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, ... if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:6 ... thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat
John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

So, it's VERY accurate to substitute "sayings" or "words".

Therefore, we have "And the sayings were made flesh".

I can agree with that.

 

[Right Divider]

Greetings Right Divider, I was simply using Aimiel’s logic “He is IN His Father's Throne. Please note: God doesn't share His Glory with ANYONE. Jesus, ergo: MUST be God!!!”. God the Father is God and does not share his glory with anyone, and to sit in God the Father’s throne is to share God’s glory. If, as Trinitarians claim, Jesus is God, then to sit in Jesus’ throne is to share Jesus’ glory, then unless you believe that God the Son is more generous than God the Father, then you have a problem.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor

The throne of his glory refers to the Lord Jesus Christ's throne in Jerusalem when He returns to establish His kingdom.

Revelation 22:1 & 3 show that throne of God is also the throne of the Lamb (the Lord Jesus Christ).

Just another of the many, many times that the Bible refers to Christ as God.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If Jesus is not God, then He is not worthy of being worshipped.

If He is God, He is worthy of worship.

The Bible says He is worthy of being worshipped.

Therefore, He is God.

Being worshiped does not make someone God.
Being worthy of worship does not make someone God.

You seem to have missed the context of Revelation 5:12.

Allow me to present it to you:

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb[/U], forever and ever!”Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. - Revelation 5:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation5:1-14&version=NKJV

You seem to have missed something important, which I highlighted.
If the Lamb is God, then the Lamb would have "power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing" from all eternity as God and the Lamb would not RECEIVE "power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing" because He was worthy.

The point is that God alone is worthy of worship.

The Bible shows otherwise.
Jacob/Israel was to be worshiped by all tribes.

Genesis 27:29 DRA 29 And let peoples serve thee, and tribes worship thee: be thou lord of thy brethren, and let thy mother's children bow down before thee. Cursed be he that curseth thee: and let him that blesseth thee be filled with blessings.​

Joseph was worshiped by his brothers.

Genesis 50:18 DRA 18 And his brethren came to him: and worshipping prostrate on the ground they said: We are thy servants.​

Jethro was worshiped by Moses.

Exodus 18:7 DRA 7 And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,​

Boaz was worshiped by Ruth.

Ruth 2:10 DRA 10 She fell on her face and worshipping upon the ground, said to him: Whence cometh this to me, that I should find grace before thy eyes, and that thou shouldst vouchsafe to take notice of me a woman of another country?​

There are many more examples.

 

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Catholics and Orthodox don't believe Mary has any power or authority, and that she has the ear of the Lord, is based in part upon scriptural example.

And the scriptural example from this passage shows that Mary has no special access to Jesus.

Matthew 12:46-50 46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.​

No Catholics or Orthodox believe that Mary is in any way God. Therefore it is simply incorrect to accuse Catholics or Orthodox of worshiping Mary when praying to her. We do not worship Mary.

Even though you are arguing that it would be licit to worship her as royalty, if she is royalty /a queen, Catholics and Orthodox only worship God, and Mary is in no way God.

A few excerpts from a Catholic website that I believe constitute damnable heresies:

Ad Caeli Reginam 10. So it is that St. Ephrem. . . prays to her: ". . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me." 16. The Blessed Virgin, sitting at the right hand of God to pray for us is hailed by another writer of that same era in these words, "the Queen of mortal man, the most holy Mother of God." 18. And in another place he [St. Andrew of Crete] speaks of "the Queen of the entire human race faithful to the exact meaning of her name, who is exalted above all things save only God himself." 19. Likewise St. Germanus speaks to the humble Virgin in these words: "Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings." He likewise calls her the "Queen of all of those who dwell on earth." 24. We wish also to recall that Our predecessor of immortal memory, Sixtus IV, touched favorably upon the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, beginning the Apostolic Letter *** praeexcelsa with words in which Mary is called "Queen," "Who is always vigilant to intercede with the king whom she bore." Benedict XIV declared the same thing in his Apostolic Letter Gloriosae Dominae, in which Mary is called "Queen of heaven and earth," and it is stated that the sovereign King has in some way communicated to her his ruling power. 35. But the Blessed Virgin Mary should be called Queen, not only because of her Divine Motherhood, but also because God has willed her to have an exceptional role in the work of our eternal salvation.

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