Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible

[TrevorL]

Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
I mentioned to a JW on another thread, that I agreed with the JWs on some of their teachings, but that I disagreed with quite a few of their other teachings. I hope to present some of these differences in this thread, and I hope we can take this steadily, without jumping to every topic at once. Possibly as each topic is reasonably covered we can either agree, or disagree, but our respective positions will be reasonably covered. I hope to learn from this interaction.

Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV): 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 (NWT 2013): 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

My understanding of the above is that Jesus is to return to the earth in a similar way to that mentioned above, literally, visibly and as a result Jesus will be actually upon the earth, and no longer in heaven. I also believe that the return of Jesus is still future and when this occurs it will result in the overthrow of the kingdoms of men and be the start of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth that will last for 1000 years.

My assessment of the JW position is that Jesus will not literally return to the earth. I will let them explain their position, but it could be that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, but is still in heaven. There may be other reasons why they claim that he will not literally return or that it is not possible for Jesus to return to the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Truster]

There is only one word necessary to speak to a JW and that is repent. Anything further is sin. See my signature.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
I mentioned to a JW on another thread, that I agreed with the JWs on some of their teachings, but that I disagreed with quite a few of their other teachings. I hope to present some of these differences in this thread, and I hope we can take this steadily, without jumping to every topic at once. Possibly as each topic is reasonably covered we can either agree, or disagree, but our respective positions will be reasonably covered. I hope to learn from this interaction.

Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven
Acts 1:9-11 (KJV): 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:9-11 (NWT 2013): 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

My understanding of the above is that Jesus is to return to the earth in a similar way to that mentioned above, literally, visibly and as a result Jesus will be actually upon the earth, and no longer in heaven. I also believe that the return of Jesus is still future and when this occurs it will result in the overthrow of the kingdoms of men and be the start of the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon earth that will last for 1000 years.

My assessment of the JW position is that Jesus will not literally return to the earth. I will let them explain their position, but it could be that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, but is still in heaven. There may be other reasons why they claim that he will not literally return or that it is not possible for Jesus to return to the earth.

Kind regards
Trevor

You're not that far off. We believe that Jesus was established as King in 1914. (This we derive from Daniels prophecy). He is currently ruling invisibly from Heaven. We also believe that Jesus as a powerful spirit being will lead the battle of Armageddon ushering in his 1000 year rule once all the 'Kings' of the Earth are over thrown by Jesus and his co-rulers the 144,000. We do not believe he will return in a 'human' form at the battle of Armaggedon.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/jesus-coming/

The link above will explain in greater detail our doctrinal position on the matter.

Note the paragraph:-

Does Christ come in a body of spirit or of flesh?

Jesus was resurrected with a spirit body, so he comes as a spirit creature, not in the flesh. (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Peter 3:18) For this reason, Jesus could tell his apostles on the day before his death: “In a little while the world will see me no more.”—John 14:19.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings SonOfCaleb,

You're not that far off. We believe that Jesus was established as King in 1914. (This we derive from Daniels prophecy). He is currently ruling invisibly from Heaven. We also believe that Jesus as a powerful spirit being will lead the battle of Armageddon ushering in his 1000 year rule once all the 'Kings' of the Earth are over thrown by Jesus and his co-rulers the 144,000. We do not believe he will return in a 'human' form at the battle of Armageddon.

I appreciate your response and participation. I am still confused as to how you understand Acts 1:11. You seem to add a filter or two from other JW teachings, which we could discuss at length, but you may be able to clarify some of this by brief answers to the following:
1. When Jesus led the Apostles to the Mount of Olives and then ascended from their presence, was he visible to the Apostles or not?
2. Was he in a human form or spirit form when he ascended? What do you really mean by human form? (3) is a statement not a question, but you could respond to this:
3. Considering a spiritual body, and my definition may be different to yours. I believe that a spiritual body is a body that is resurrected and changed from mortality to immortality, but God uses the original body or dust if available as the basis of this change from mortality to immortality. Jesus is the first and his body was resurrected and this same body was changed to immortality, but the faithful will be resurrected or changed when he returns.
4. Do you take the return of Jesus in Acts 1:11 as spoken to the Apostles as describing 1914 or the yet anticipated return of Jesus?
5. Are the Apostles now in heaven?
6. When Jesus returns in the future will he still be in heaven?

To keep this thread moving, I consider the following is Peter’s comments and interpretation of what he was told in Acts 1:11. In other words, he believed that Jesus would return from heaven and at that time be upon the earth, even possibly witnessing his feet standing upon the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14:4 and this will usher in the times of restoration and refreshment, the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19-21 (NWT 2013): 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SonOfCaleb]

1. When Jesus led the Apostles to the Mount of Olives and then ascended from their presence, was he visible to the Apostles or not?

Indeed he was. As Acts 1:11 tells us he was. But once Jesus was caught up in the clouds and no longer visible the Angels of Jehovah that materialized next to the Apostles asked "why do you stand looking into the sky?". This was obviously because the Apostles couldnt see Jesus anymore as he had dematerilized back into a spirit form. Spirits of course are not visible to human sight.
This is an important point which i will elucidate on further in this post.

2.Was he in a human form or spirit form when he ascended? What do you really mean by human form?

It is clear from the verse and the context that Jesus was obviously in a human form or i should say just human. As he began to descend and the Apostles vision was obscured by the clouds Jesus would have materialized back into a spirit. This can be the only logical conclusion as A) Humans cannot fly -i dont mean this facetiously- and B)ONLY spirits can enter Heaven. By human form i mean simply a human fleshly being. Corporeal like you and i.

(3) is a statement not a question, but you could respond to this:
3. Considering a spiritual body, and my definition may be different to yours. I believe that a spiritual body is a body that is resurrected and changed from mortality to immortality, but God uses the original body or dust if available as the basis of this change from mortality to immortality. Jesus is the first and his body was resurrected and this same body was changed to immortality, but the faithful will be resurrected or changed when he returns.

The Bible is very clear that immortality is a gift that is reserved only for the 144,000 and Jesus who was also resurrected to immortality. The vast majority of all the spirit angels in Heaven are NOT immortal. Neither are Satan and his Demons. If they were immortal then their judgement and final destruction as indicated in the book of Revelation would not be possible as Revelation tells us that Satan and his Demons will be thrown into the symbolic 'Lake of Fire'. EG they will be destroyed.
Even Jesus the first born of creation prior to his ascension back into heaven was mortal. As Paul tells us he was resurrected into immortality. Therefore it is very clear that immortality is an extremely special gift that Jehovah only bestows on those who he deems it and those who displayed exemplary faith.

Revelation and also Paul in his letters tells us there are two resurrections. Firstly the ressurection of the 'First fruits' (The 144,000 who are resurrected to immortal life in the Heavens) and the second resurrection which occurs during Judgement Day of the righteous and the 'unrighteous'. This second resurrection is an earthly resurrection EG a resurrection of the dead (humans) back to life on Earth. Its the same resurrection that the Sadducees didn't believe in. And the same resurrection Marth spoke of to Jesus in John 11:24

"Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day."

This "Last Day" Martha refers to is the Judgement Day when Christs 1000 year rule takes place where he will continue to judge the righteous and the 'unrighteous'.

4.Do you take the return of Jesus in Acts 1:11 as spoken to the Apostles as describing 1914 or the yet anticipated return of Jesus?

Our understanding of Daniels Prophecy on the 'Gentile Times' is the basis for the 1914 date. Acts 1:11 is not related to that. Our understanding of Jesus return is based on Jesus letter to John in the book of Revelation which describes the time of his 'presence' or the 'Last days' as its generally known.

5.Are the Apostles now in heaven?

Yes they are. The 12 including Paul and obviously not Judas were the first members of the 144,000.

6.When Jesus returns in the future will he still be in heaven?

His government is in heaven therefore as a spirit he will continue to rule from heaven. Its clear from Acts 1:10-11 that Jesus left the earth without public fanfare, his faithful followers being the only observers. He will return “in the same manner” —without public fanfare, with only his faithful followers discerning his presence in Kingdom power. Thus our understanding of this verse is a bit more nuanced than your literal interpretation of the verse as we believe Christ has already returned. As i said we believe his kingdom was established in 1914 and he rules invisibly right now from Heaven. Now that Gods Kingdom is established in Heaven all that remains is to establish his Kingdom on Earth which Jesus will do after the battle of Armaggedon.
The material aspect of his presence though will be even more magnified at the battle of Armageddon which Revelation tells us is a battle that he directly leads against the 'Kings of the Earth.
As this is a global conflagration its obviously not a battle that in my opinon he could lead in human form as the 144,000 along with Jehovahs heavenly armies will also be involved.
Note Jeremiahs words in

2 Kings 19:35  On that very night the angel of Jehovah went out and struck down 185,000 men in the camp of the As·syrʹi·ans. When people rose up early in the morning, they saw all the dead bodies.

That was just one angel of Jehovah. Imagine myriads of Jehovahs angels would be capable of led by Michael (Jesus) at Armageddon.

 

[jamie]

His government is in heaven therefore as a spirit he will continue to rule from heaven.

Is heaven a place?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Jehovah Witness Teaching compared with The Bible
I mentioned to a JW on another thread, that I agreed with the JWs on some of their teachings, but that I disagreed with quite a few of their other teachings. I hope to present some of these differences in this thread, and I hope we can take this steadily, without jumping to every topic at once. Possibly as each topic is reasonably covered we can either agree, or disagree, but our respective positions will be reasonably covered. I hope to learn from this interaction.

That sounds all post-modern ecumenical and all, but you’re looking for a dialog with Satan. Something you need to understand about cults is that they are built on lies. It’s from this they derive their “product exclusivity” in the market of religion. This is how they enslave a congregation, get power over them, their money, etc. Few of their proselyte dupes have had a born again experience, and, in my life, I’ve known many those born again whose testimony was they left the cult, this of all the cults, whose testimony was, like all authentic Christians, they had a hunger for the word of God and found the cult was lying about scripture and making stuff up. The Holy Spirit leads into all truth, or a person does not have the Spirit. A person is on a course the direction of truth, in other words, if they have the Holy Spirit, if they have eyes that see and ears that hear. And faith starts with repentance, changing one’s mind and coming into agreement with God, not loving and believing Satanic lies and spreading doctrines that try to make God a liar! These people have never repented and refuse to, year after year.

Dialog based on truth with the dyed-in-the-wool cultist? They don’t believe God's very word that flies in the face of what they believe is preeminent, and that is their cult false prophets and leadership. The writings of the false prophet are esteemed above scripture, to the point that, in their unregenerate blindness and disdain for truth, they refuse clear scripture from the word of God that clearly contradicts their lies: God is saying that’s a lie, but they don’t care about that, not one whit. They are signed-up for man’s false doctrines.

I would suggest to you can’t have a fruitful dialog with that, that the true child of God can’t really have an understanding with lies and Satan. These people, at the core, reject scripture truth everyday! It’s like the principle a friend of the world is an enemy of God. Any such effort is no different than trying to find common ground with Muslims, who, in the final analysis, are antichrist and would have your head. Jehovah’s Witnesses are, in fact, antichrist, denying the full deity of the Lord Jesus, reject our very God. Again, they reject all truth of God’s word that contradicts them, over and over, are not naive heathen, hearing the gospel for the first time. What sort of understanding are you seeking? That you both like chocolate ice cream? Once it dawns on you there’s no agreement about the Person of God, the Cornerstone, what agreement is there at all of any consequence? There’s a whole mountain of lies beyond that, and all liars go to the lake of fire.

Please do report back your results, maybe summarize them, like perhaps achieving a dialog with Muslims that we can all agree you don’t rape a little girl younger than nine years old. Maybe sing a few bars of Kumbaya together? That and a dime, three dollars for inflation, will buy you a cup of coffee, anyway.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Indeed he was. As Acts 1:11 tells us he was. But once Jesus was caught up in the clouds and no longer visible the Angels of Jehovah that materialized next to the Apostles asked "why do you stand looking into the sky?". This was obviously because the Apostles couldnt see Jesus anymore as he had dematerilized back into a spirit form. Spirits of course are not visible to human sight.
This is an important point which i will elucidate on further in this post.



It is clear from the verse and the context that Jesus was obviously in a human form or i should say just human. As he began to descend and the Apostles vision was obscured by the clouds Jesus would have materialized back into a spirit. This can be the only logical conclusion as A) Humans cannot fly -i dont mean this facetiously- and B)ONLY spirits can enter Heaven. By human form i mean simply a human fleshly being. Corporeal like you and i.



The Bible is very clear that immortality is a gift that is reserved only for the 144,000 and Jesus who was also resurrected to immortality. The vast majority of all the spirit angels in Heaven are NOT immortal. Neither are Satan and his Demons. If they were immortal then their judgement and final destruction as indicated in the book of Revelation would not be possible as Revelation tells us that Satan and his Demons will be thrown into the symbolic 'Lake of Fire'. EG they will be destroyed.
Even Jesus the first born of creation prior to his ascension back into heaven was mortal. As Paul tells us he was resurrected into immortality. Therefore it is very clear that immortality is an extremely special gift that Jehovah only bestows on those who he deems it and those who displayed exemplary faith.

Revelation and also Paul in his letters tells us there are two resurrections. Firstly the ressurection of the 'First fruits' (The 144,000 who are resurrected to immortal life in the Heavens) and the second resurrection which occurs during Judgement Day of the righteous and the 'unrighteous'. This second resurrection is an earthly resurrection EG a resurrection of the dead (humans) back to life on Earth. Its the same resurrection that the Sadducees didn't believe in. And the same resurrection Marth spoke of to Jesus in John 11:24



This "Last Day" Martha refers to is the Judgement Day when Christs 1000 year rule takes place where he will continue to judge the righteous and the 'unrighteous'.



Our understanding of Daniels Prophecy on the 'Gentile Times' is the basis for the 1914 date. Acts 1:11 is not related to that. Our understanding of Jesus return is based on Jesus letter to John in the book of Revelation which describes the time of his 'presence' or the 'Last days' as its generally known.



Yes they are. The 12 including Paul and obviously not Judas were the first members of the 144,000.



His government is in heaven therefore as a spirit he will continue to rule from heaven. Its clear from Acts 1:10-11 that Jesus left the earth without public fanfare, his faithful followers being the only observers. He will return “in the same manner” —without public fanfare, with only his faithful followers discerning his presence in Kingdom power. Thus our understanding of this verse is a bit more nuanced than your literal interpretation of the verse as we believe Christ has already returned. As i said we believe his kingdom was established in 1914 and he rules invisibly right now from Heaven. Now that Gods Kingdom is established in Heaven all that remains is to establish his Kingdom on Earth which Jesus will do after the battle of Armaggedon.
The material aspect of his presence though will be even more magnified at the battle of Armageddon which Revelation tells us is a battle that he directly leads against the 'Kings of the Earth.
As this is a global conflagration its obviously not a battle that in my opinon he could lead in human form as the 144,000 along with Jehovahs heavenly armies will also be involved.
Note Jeremiahs words in
That was just one angel of Jehovah. Imagine myriads of Jehovahs angels would be capable of led by Michael (Jesus) at Armageddon.

Hi SonOfCaleb,

Michael is an archangel and he is mentioned in Daniel quite vividly. Do you know the passage?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Is heaven a place?

I think you know the answer to that already.......Yes it is.

Jesus said at

Matthew 12:50 "my Father who is in heaven"

 

[SonOfCaleb]

.

Luke 11:52

New International Version
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

Your post reveals you're certainly not an expert on the 'Law' but these words Jesus spoke to the Pharisees certainly apply to you.

 

[jamie]

I think you know the answer to that already.......Yes it is.

Heaven is a dimension, a spiritual dimension surrounding the earth.

The spiritual dimension is the primary dimension, the physical dimension is temporary.

Spirit beings are inter-dimensional, humans are uni-dimensional.

 

[steko]

Heaven is a dimension, a spiritual dimension surrounding the earth.

The spiritual dimension is the primary dimension, the physical dimension is temporary.

Spirit beings are inter-dimensional, humans are uni-dimensional.

Heaven/shamayim is 'up' and is where the rain comes from.

It's not science fiction.

 

[jamie]

Heaven/shamayim is 'up' and is where the rain comes from.

Rain is an aspect of the physical dimension and falls on the just and the unjust.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Your post reveals you're certainly not an expert on the 'Law' but these words Jesus spoke to the Pharisees certainly apply to you.

Thank you! Though I don't like to seem ungrateful, I do prefer a more emotionally charged, acidic and inane remark from you cult guys who are bankrupt of truth. You could at least show a little enthusiasm, launch into the usual, vacuous tirade.

“When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.”

You sure packed it in quickly, will say you're the fastest Jehovah's Witness in the West.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Thank you! Though I don't like to seem ungrateful, I do prefer a more emotionally charged, acidic and inane remark from you cult guys who are bankrupt of truth. You could at least show a little enthusiasm, launch into the usual, vacuous tirade.

“When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.”

You sure packed it in quickly, will say you're the fastest Jehovah's Witness in the West.

I wasn't complimenting you. I would have thought that was obvious.....I dont feel the need for condescension as you seem to. Its unnecessary. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

In addition im not attempting to win a debate with you. I would have thought that was obvious to. As its very obvious to me what you are. And most of all what you're not.

When you're ready to contribute something to this thread of value to the OP we can converse.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I wasn't complimenting you. I would have thought that was obvious.....I dont feel the need for condescension as you seem to. Its unnecessary. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

In addition im not attempting to win a debate with you. I would have thought that was obvious to. As its very obvious to me what you are. And most of all what you're not.

When you're ready to contribute something to this thread of value to the OP we can converse.

Oh! Well, we want a contribution? Alright then. Let's get you some contributions. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, Jehovah of the Old Testament, the 144,000 are Jews, Einstein, with even their tribes spelled-out, and you're going to suffering eternal torment in hell and the lake of fire, if you don't repent of your lies and accept Almighty, Eternal God of both Old and New Testaments, His name Jesus, the Christ, God and Lord of lords. How's that for contributions, ye spawn of the proven and pernicious, lying false prophet, Charles Taze Russell?

I find it incredible you cult dudes somehow think God waited until the 19th century to present mankind your bastardized doctrines that refute His own word and announce the chosen few hang out at the Watchtower in Brooklyn. It's not exactly scripture as such, rather a paraphrase, but so true, "Stupid is as stupid does." Forrest Gump, with more prophetic credentials than Russell.

By the way, I did know you weren't complimenting me, and this was precisely what I was thanking you for, as well as thanking Almighty God, that is, the Lord Jesus. Rejoicing is rejoicing, you know. One of the scariest things in the world would be approval of your ilk. I'd feel like Hillary, getting endorsed by all those Hollywood Satanists, with the exception she probably doesn't see the alarming liability.

Psalm 102:25,
"Of old Thou didst found the earth; and the heavens are the work of Thy hands."
Heb. 1:10,
"And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
Phil. 2:10-11,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Deut. 10:17,
"For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe."
Rev. 17:14,
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
John 1:49,
"Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"
Rev. 22:12-13,
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Psalm 130:7-8,
"O Israel, hope in the Lord; for with the Lord there is lovingkindness, and with Him is abundant redemption. 8 And He will redeem Israel from all his iniquities."
Titus 2:14,
"who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

Genesis 22:8,
"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering. So the two of them went together."
Zech. 12:10,
"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born."
Rev. 1:7,
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen."

Joel 2:32,
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."
Rom. 10:13 ,
"for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

No need to pack a sweater:

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. [Need a little commentary? Toodle-loo to all liars, not some liars.]

Matthew 25

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9

42 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched ---
46 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire ---
48 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revalation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 12

4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Luke 16

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

There, I contributed.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,
Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven (cont’d)

Indeed he was. As Acts 1:11 tells us he was. But once Jesus was caught up in the clouds and no longer visible the Angels of Jehovah that materialized next to the Apostles asked "why do you stand looking into the sky?". This was obviously because the Apostles couldnt see Jesus anymore as he had dematerilized back into a spirit form. Spirits of course are not visible to human sight.
This is an important point which i will elucidate on further in this post.

There is no mention in Acts 1:9-11 that Jesus had dematerialised back into spirit form. What is clear from Acts 1:9 is that the Apostles could not see him because of the cloud. I believe that those resurrected unto a spiritual body are visble, but can withhold our seeing of them when they so desire. This does not require a change, a materialise/dematerialize process. It is sufficient to disenable the small band of the optical range on the electromagnetic band. I believe that Jesus’ body was raised and changed from mortality to immortality, but the same body.

It is clear from the verse and the context that Jesus was obviously in a human form or i should say just human. As he began to descend and the Apostles vision was obscured by the clouds Jesus would have materialized back into a spirit. This can be the only logical conclusion as A) Humans cannot fly -i dont mean this facetiously- and B)ONLY spirits can enter Heaven. By human form i mean simply a human fleshly being. Corporeal like you and i.

God can cause a spiritual body to overcome gravity. Philip after baptising the eunuch was transported (caught away) contrary to the normal laws of physics.

The Bible is very clear that immortality is a gift that is reserved only for the 144,000 and Jesus who was also resurrected to immortality.
Even Jesus the first born of creation prior to his ascension back into heaven was mortal. As Paul tells us he was resurrected into immortality. Therefore it is very clear that immortality is an extremely special gift that Jehovah only bestows on those who he deems it and those who displayed exemplary faith.

I believe that Jesus was granted immortality shortly after he was raised from the dead, possibly after meeting Mary in the garden. I do not accept the two classes suggested by the JWs, the 144,000 and others. I believe that all the faithful will receive immortality when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom on earth. (I have not quoted your next paragraph, but my answer above covers some of this).

Our understanding of Daniels Prophecy on the 'Gentile Times' is the basis for the 1914 date. Acts 1:11 is not related to that. Our understanding of Jesus return is based on Jesus letter to John in the book of Revelation which describes the time of his 'presence' or the 'Last days' as its generally known.
Yes they are. The 12 including Paul and obviously not Judas were the first members of the 144,000.

Acts 1:9-11 was spoken to the Apostles and seems to infer that the Apostles would witness the return of Jesus from heaven and that he would be visible to them at least. There seems to be an emphasis that he would return in a similar way: KJV: “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” And NWT: “will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

His government is in heaven therefore as a spirit he will continue to rule from heaven. Its clear from Acts 1:10-11 that Jesus left the earth without public fanfare, his faithful followers being the only observers. He will return “in the same manner” —without public fanfare, with only his faithful followers discerning his presence in Kingdom power. Thus our understanding of this verse is a bit more nuanced than your literal interpretation of the verse as we believe Christ has already returned. As i said we believe his kingdom was established in 1914 and he rules invisibly right now from Heaven. Now that Gods Kingdom is established in Heaven all that remains is to establish his Kingdom on Earth which Jesus will do after the battle of Armaggedon.

But Acts 3:19-21 seem to indicate that Jesus will no longer be in heaven. With this I would like to proceed with the next topic, and this flows on from this. I am not closing Topic 1, but Topic 2 overlaps some aspects of Topic 1 and could help.

Topic 2: When and where will Jesus sit upon the Throne of David
In brief summary I suggest that Jesus will return to the earth and sit upon the Throne of David in literal Jerusalem for the 1000 years. Peter in Acts 2 speaks that Jesus will sit upon David’s throne, and he links this with Psalm110:1. We have agreed with some aspects of Psalm 110:1 elsewhere, but to me this teaches that Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God in God’s throne, then return to the earth to sit upon His own throne, the throne of David in literal Jerusalem. This links not only with Acts 1:9-11 but also Acts 3:19-21.
Luke 1:30-33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Acts 3:19-21 (NWT 2013): 30 So the angel said to her: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,
Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven (cont’d)

This was obviously because the Apostles couldn’t see Jesus anymore as he had dematerilized back into a spirit form. Spirits of course are not visible to human sight. This is an important point which I will elucidate on further in this post.

I would like to comment further upon this, as it seems that you structure many of your teachings (JW teachings) around this concept. As I stated, I believe that Jesus was resurrected in the same body that was crucified and lay in the tomb for three days. I believe that shortly after this his renewed resurrected body was changed from mortality to immortality, that is a spiritual body. It was this same Jesus whom the Apostles saw in the upper room, and they saw ascend to heaven.

I believe that the Scriptures teach that Jesus and other Spirit Beings have substance and their natural or normal status is that they possess both moral and physical glory. When Moses asked to be shown God’s glory, he could not behold the full glory, and then Yahweh pronounced His moral glory, predominantly starting with His mercy, and yet revealing His justice upon the wicked.

When John speaks of Jesus’ glory, he first speaks of his moral glory in John 1:14, that he was “full of grace and truth”. In John 12 he cites Isaiah 6:9-10 and states that this was spoken when Isaiah saw Christ’s glory, and this appears to be referring to Isaiah 6:1 where Isaiah saw the future King-Priest enthroned in the future Temple at Jerusalem. When Jesus was transfigured he appeared in glory and was thus revealed to Peter, James and John. Peter says that this is an indication of what Jesus will be like when he returns.

My conclusion from this is, that the normal or natural state of those with spiritual bodies, that is a Spirit creature, is to reveal a physical glory. It seems that they can suppress this glory, and appear as a normal man, and even withhold their presence from sight. When Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives he went in his resurrected body, possibly not revealing the full glory equivalent to the Transfiguration. He will return from heaven in the same body, and in process of time or circumstances his full glory will be revealed.

Topic 2: When and where will Jesus sit upon the Throne of David (cont’d)
In support of the teaching that the throne of David will be in Jerusalem, please consider the following:
Jeremiah 3:17 (KJV): At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Jeremiah 3:17 (NWT 2013): At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all the nations will be brought together to the name of Jehovah at Jerusalem, and they will no longer stubbornly follow their own wicked heart.”

Matthew 5:34-35 (KJV): 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:34-35 (NWT 2013): 34 However, I say to you: Do not swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Perhaps a JW could explain where they believe the Throne of David now is (after 1914?), or will be, when it is obvious that Jesus has been seated at the right hand of God in His throne Psalm 110:1. Is the Throne of David removed at a distance and still in heaven?

Now the following could also be considered under Topic 2, as it gives a picture of Jerusalem after the return of Jesus when he sits upon the throne of David, but this overlaps with another topic where the JW teaching can be compared with the Bible:

Topic 3: Jesus will subdue and convert Israel and the nations at his return and then reign over them.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (NWT 2013): This is what Isaiah the son of Aʹmoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.
Please note that the above is concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the last days and the scene presented is that of the nations coming up to worship to Jerusalem when Jesus is enthroned in the Temple as King-Priest.

My understanding of the JW teaching on this subject is that Israel and the nations will be destroyed and only the servant class will inhabit the earth while the elect 144,000 will be in heaven with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Greetings again SonOfCaleb,
Topic 1: The return of our Lord Jesus Christ from heaven (cont’d) There is no mention in Acts 1:9-11 that Jesus had dematerialised back into spirit form.

It doesnt need to explicitly state it. As heaven is a spiritual realm. Fleshly beings cannot enter heaven which is harmonius with what Jesus said in Luke 24:39

"39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have."

Therefore Jesus could only enter Heaven as a spirit.

What is clear from Acts 1:9 is that the Apostles could not see him because of the cloud.

Wether their vision was obscured by Jesus changing back into a spirit or by the cloud that obscured their vision is immaterial in my opinion. As Jesus didnt enter heaven as a fleshly human being. I believe you're placing to much emphasis on the cloud and missing the more pertient point.

I believe that those resurrected unto a spiritual body are visble, but can withhold our seeing of them when they so desire. This does not require a change, a materialise/dematerialize process. It is sufficient to disenable the small band of the optical range on the electromagnetic band. I believe that Jesus’ body was raised and changed from mortality to immortality, but the same body.

There is no scripture that supports this viewpoint. No human apart from Jesus has entered Heaven so you do not know nor can you know or behold what a spiritual being looks like in spirit form. In fact when you consider the examples of Gideon or Balaam its clear that the spirits they eventually saw had to be in corporeal form in order for them to see them. The scriptures below prove the spirits were not discernable to them.

Numbers 22:30 tells us "Then Jehovah uncovered Baʹlaam’s eyes, and he saw Jehovah’s angel standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand". Balaam as you know was not able to see the Angel until the Angel materialised into a corporeal being and Jehovah allowed Balaam to see his angel.
Judges 6:21 "1 Then Jehovah’s angel stretched out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread, and fire flared up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Jehovah’s angel then vanished from his sight. 22 Gidʹe·on now realized that it was Jehovah’s angel". Gideon likewise had no clue he was talking to an Angel of Jehovah until the Angel disappeared from his sight. These verses prove as you have admitted that Angels must materialise or change into a corporeal form in order to be seen by human beings. And by the word 'materialise' i mean this only as an adjective. You seem to be looking for a deeper esoteric meaning..

Human beings are INHERENTLY mortal. Even perfect humans are as evidenced by Christs death. Only spirit beings can be made immortal. Hence why Paul attests to Jesus recieving the gift of immortality upon re-entering heaven.

Romans 6:9 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him.

Jesus existed as a spirit in heaven when Paul wrote these words. His human body disposed of.

I believe that Jesus was granted immortality shortly after he was raised from the dead, possibly after meeting Mary in the garden.

There is no scripture in the Bible that supports this viewpoint. His immortality was only mentioned by the Apostles AFTER he was raised to heaven.

I believe that all the faithful will receive immortality when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom on earth. (I have not quoted your next paragraph, but my answer above covers some of this).

Again there is no scripture that supports this viewpoint. Even the faithful Angels are mortal beings. The once faithful Angels who rebelled prior to the flood are also mortal hence why their judgement and destruction is spoken of in Revelation. Immortality given by God is obviously a very very unique precious, and exemplary gift for distinguished individuals EG the annointed ones of the 144,000. To think that Jehovah would merely hand that out willy nilly when he hasnt even given immortality to the vast majority of the spirit beings in heaven who serve in his heavenly government is not only illogical its a viewpoint thats simply not harmonius with the bible.

Topic 2: When and where will Jesus sit upon the Throne of David
In brief summary I suggest that Jesus will return to the earth and sit upon the Throne of David in literal Jerusalem for the 1000 years. Peter in Acts 2 speaks that Jesus will sit upon David’s throne, and he links this with Psalm110:1. We have agreed with some aspects of Psalm 110:1 elsewhere, but to me this teaches that Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God in God’s throne, then return to the earth to sit upon His own throne, the throne of David in literal Jerusalem. This links not only with Acts 1:9-11 but also Acts 3:19-21.
Luke 1:30-33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

If literal Jerusalem was still important to God he wouldnt have abandoned it since 1AD nor allowed its total and finite destruction by the Roman armys in 70CE. The temple there is in ruins and hasnt been rebuilt. Literal Jerusalem is of no consequence to Gods will nor purpose for this Earth and humankind. Either way Jesus as a descendant of David is already enthroned in heaven. Jehovahs government is already established in heaven. That government rules exclusively from heaven as was always intended from Adams creation, the subjects of that kingdom being mankind below on Earth. In fact Paul in Galations refers to this heavenly government as the 'Jerusalem above'. Literal Jerusalem of old merely foreshadowing Gods kingdom in the heavens along with spiritual Israel and the Israel above.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Perhaps a JW could explain where they believe the Throne of David now is (after 1914?), or will be, when it is obvious that Jesus has been seated at the right hand of God in His throne Psalm 110:1. Is the Throne of David removed at a distance and still in heaven?

Its in heaven. And will remain in heaven indefinitely.

Now the following could also be considered under Topic 2, as it gives a picture of Jerusalem after the return of Jesus when he sits upon the throne of David, but this overlaps with another topic where the JW teaching can be compared with the Bible:

Topic 3: Jesus will subdue and convert Israel and the nations at his return and then reign over them.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (NWT 2013): This is what Isaiah the son of Aʹmoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.
Please note that the above is concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the last days and the scene presented is that of the nations coming up to worship to Jerusalem when Jesus is enthroned in the Temple as King-Priest.

My understanding of the JW teaching on this subject is that Israel and the nations will be destroyed and only the servant class will inhabit the earth while the elect 144,000 will be in heaven with Jesus.

We believe ALL earthly governments will be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Therefore all current nation states and their governments will cease to exist once destroyed and Jesus rule is established on Earth from heaven. The current nation state of Israel, nor its location, nor the 'Jewish' people, nor literal Jerusalem have any significant to us doctrinally. The maority of Christendom believes that mankinds salvation is tied up in literal Israel. We do NOT believe this at all. Its self evident from the scriptures that literal Israel has zero bearing on Gods will. It was after all 'Israel' who put Jesus to death hence why Gods covenant with Israel ended upon Jesus death when the nation of Israel rejected Jesus and Israel and the temple were utterly destroyed in 70CE.

The 'Great Crowd' as spoken of in Revelation will inhabit the Earth as subjects of the kingdom. The 144,000 anointed ones will rule from heaven with Jesus for the millenium.