JC was NOT the messiah!

[Elia]

How am I to judge that what you say is not wrong? Is "Ivrie" Hebrew.

Bs'd

I think what you should ask yourself is: "Is it important?"

If not, you don't need to waste any more time and energy on it.

Proto-Sumerian was used after the time of Noah...

What proofs can you bring for that one?

but what if it was FROM THE TIME OF NOAH? Who can tell (how did the inscription come to be)?

Was the language confused at Babel?

Yes.

This was after Noah. How is it that Hebrew survived (following the assumption that it is the original language) and yet Abraham was the only one to speak it?

A miracle of God.

Who else (what other people group) speaks Hebrew beside the Jews or Israel?

Nobody.


Eliyahu

 

[Jacob]

Bs'd

I think what you should ask yourself is: "Is it important?"

Sure it is important. You made a claim, and I'm testing it against what I have heard, hoping we can come to a right conclusion.

If not, you don't need to waste any more time and energy on it.

Proto-Sumerian was used after the time of Noah...

What proofs can you bring for that one?

Did you look at the linked inscription?

http://www.vonbora.org/Project_Von_Bora/83_Climb.html

Do you think this was written before the flood?

Yes.

We are agreed on this point.

A miracle of God.

This is what is said by the Muslim of Arabic. I'm trying to figure out who came up with this first, or if the claims are being made independant of each other, rather than in contest.

Nobody.

Eliyahu

So did anyone speak Hebrew before Jacob/Israel? I say yes. I've gone back to Abraham. How much further back can we go if only the Jew/Israelite speaks Hebrew? Where are the remnants of the original language in the other people groups?

 

[Elia]

Bs'd

For the finer details about why JC was not the messiah, look here: http://mountzion.freewebpage.org


Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

 

[Jacob]

Bs'd

If you're Jewish, please don't break the shabbat by using your comp on the shabbat.

I do not use my computer on shabbat. Do you attend a congregation that does or does not use a computer? Shalom.

Depends which language I"m speaking. When I speak English I say "messiah", when I speak Hebrew, then I say "meshiach".


Shalom!


Eliyahu

Yeshua is the Messiah. Yeshua HaMashiach.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[freelight]

The Jewish Messiah according to Jewish requirements is absent.......

The Jewish Messiah according to Jewish requirements is absent.......

Yeshua is the Messiah. Yeshua HaMashiach.

Jacob

Then can you answer the points made by Uri Yosef here going over all the messianic requirements that the Messiah is supposed to have fulfilled in order to be qualified as the Messiah?

See: Jewish Messiah Wanted

How do you answer all the points and the obvious failure of Jesus to qualify as Messiah in the pdf above?

No Jewish Messiah exists on the earth currently, because none of the Messianic promises or conditions in the world exist that the reigning Messiah is supposed to bring about.

At best and universally speaking, the only thing modern pop-Christianity has going for it is there being some inner mystical spiritual 'Christ' indwelling believers,...this may be the case for small groups or communities, but the world at large is far from having 'universal peace', much less there being a universal appeal or allegiance to 'God' all centered in Jerusalem, all peoples worshipping YHWH and ascending the mount of the Lord to give him sacrifice.

 

[Nihilo]

Then can you answer the points made by Uri Yosef here going over all the messianic requirements that the Messiah is supposed to have fulfilled in order to be qualified as the Messiah?

See: Jewish Messiah Wanted

How do you answer all the points and the obvious failure of Jesus to qualify as Messiah in the pdf above?

No Jewish Messiah exists on the earth currently, because none of the Messianic promises or conditions in the world exist that the reigning Messiah is supposed to bring about.

At best and universally speaking, the only thing modern pop-Christianity has going for it is there being some inner mystical spiritual 'Christ' indwelling believers,...this may be the case for small groups or communities, but the world at large is far from having 'universal peace', much less there being a universal appeal or allegiance to 'God' all centered in Jerusalem, all peoples worshipping YHWH and ascending the mount of the Lord to give him sacrifice.

You of course know that the Church believes that He will return, correct? Maranatha.

 

[freelight]

You of course know that the Church believes that He will return, correct? Maranatha.

Yes. But there are still problems from a traditional orthodox Jewish perspective on this, since there is no 'second coming' of the Messiah teaching-concept held, and Jesus failed at his first attempt. Also, the claim from Paul that "Christ died according to the scriptures" is problematic since 'where' this is taught is controversial and could be chalked up to so much eisegesis on the part of Christians interpreting Jewish texts to fit their doctrines.

 

[Nihilo]

Yes. But there are still problems from a traditional orthodox Jewish perspective on this, since there is no 'second coming' of the Messiah teaching-concept held, and Jesus failed at his first attempt. Also, the claim from Paul that "Christ died according to the scriptures" is problematic since 'where' this is taught is controversial and could be chalked up to so much eisegesis on the part of Christians interpreting Jewish texts to fit their doctrines.

There oughtn't be any interpretation involved, but merely reading what 1st century Judah believed at that time. Of course everything since then is post-Resurrection, so only what was believed before AD 33 is valid. And among other things, Judah believed the Messiah would be born of a Virgin, in Bethlehem.

 

[Jacob]

Then can you answer the points made by Uri Yosef here going over all the messianic requirements that the Messiah is supposed to have fulfilled in order to be qualified as the Messiah?

See: Jewish Messiah Wanted

How do you answer all the points and the obvious failure of Jesus to qualify as Messiah in the pdf above?

No Jewish Messiah exists on the earth currently, because none of the Messianic promises or conditions in the world exist that the reigning Messiah is supposed to bring about.

At best and universally speaking, the only thing modern pop-Christianity has going for it is there being some inner mystical spiritual 'Christ' indwelling believers,...this may be the case for small groups or communities, but the world at large is far from having 'universal peace', much less there being a universal appeal or allegiance to 'God' all centered in Jerusalem, all peoples worshipping YHWH and ascending the mount of the Lord to give him sacrifice.

Shalom.

As a Jew I understand that the pdf you mentioned has many statement or implications about who Messiah must be which fail. Meaning, they do not accurately reflect who Messiah is.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[freelight]

Shalom.

As a Jew I understand that the pdf you mentioned has many statement or implications about who Messiah must be which fail. Meaning, they do not accurately reflect who Messiah is.

Shalom.

Jacob

What messianic promises and scriptures revealed in the article are false then and DO NOT apply to the Jewish Messiah? Then show when and where Jesus fulfilled any of those requirements. The glaring problem is still there, unless you can prove Jesus fulfilled them which he DID NOT. You can then fall back to plan B measure and say with many others,..."oh, hes coming back again to fulfill at that", which is a statement of futuristic faith. It is a mere belief. Is this your position, the he will come back and fulfill all the prophesies and requirements to prove his Messiahood, IF/WHEN he returns? Otherwise, the big fat ZERO on his score card is the big while elephant in the room. You could of course just spiritualize it all, and enjoy the inner Christ within, as your heaven, and promise of immortality. You do have many options to explore and consider

 

[Jacob]

What messianic promises and scriptures revealed in the article are false then and DO NOT apply to the Jewish Messiah? Then show when and where Jesus fulfilled any of those requirements. The glaring problem is still there, unless you can prove Jesus fulfilled them which he DID NOT. You can then fall back to plan B measure and say with many others,..."oh, hes coming back again to fulfill at that", which is a statement of futuristic faith. It is a mere belief. Is this your position, the he will come back and fulfill all the prophesies and requirements to prove his Messiahood, IF/WHEN he returns? Otherwise, the big fat ZERO on his score card is the big while elephant in the room. You could of course just spiritualize it all, and enjoy the inner Christ within, as your heaven, and promise of immortality. You do have many options to explore and consider

Shalom.

You should look at the prophecies that Jesus did fulfill and consider if what you are looking at is prophecies to be fulfilled by Jesus, whether He did or not.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[freelight]

Doctoring scripture..................

Doctoring scripture..................

There oughtn't be any interpretation involved, but merely reading what 1st century Judah believed at that time. Of course everything since then is post-Resurrection, so only what was believed before AD 33 is valid. And among other things, Judah believed the Messiah would be born of a Virgin, in Bethlehem.

The Virgin Birth has many problems, even beyond the translation issue of Is. 7:14, we've treated this in other threads,....there is no proof the Messiah NEEDS to be virgin-born, since a Messiah can still fulfill his mission as God's Anointed Agent, without such supernatural origins.

Concerning the so called 'messianic prophecy' in Micah 5:1-2, Uri Yosef also addressed its proper translation here

I don't see any evidence that 'Judah' (or whoever) believed the messiah would be born of a virgin, neither necessarily in the town of 'Bethelehem', since the passage in Micah points to 'David' whose family lineage originates from 'Bethelehem' of Judea, since the Messiah comes forth from the lineage of David, the son of Jesse. The above pdf goes clearly into this, and more concerning the right translation and best possible interpretations of the original Hebrew text.

 

[Nihilo]

The Virgin Birth has many problems, even beyond the translation issue of Is. 7:14, we've treated this in other threads,....there is no proof the Messiah NEEDS to be virgin-born, since a Messiah can still fulfill his mission as God's Anointed Agent, without such supernatural origins.

Concerning the so called 'messianic prophecy' in Micah 5:1-2, Uri Yosef also addressed its proper translation here

I don't see any evidence that 'Judah' (or whoever) believed the messiah would be born of a virgin, neither necessarily in the town of 'Bethelehem', since the passage in Micah points to 'David' whose family lineage originates from 'Bethelehem' of Judea, since the Messiah comes forth from the lineage of David, the son of Jesse. The above pdf goes clearly into this, and more concerning the right translation and best possible interpretations of the original Hebrew text.

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks today about the interpretation, because it's done in the Church age, so it is not unbiased, and cannot be unbiased. Jews need to trust their ancestors who lived at the time of Christ, that what they believed then about the Messiah, is the only interpretation that matters, and much of that interpretation that the Jewish ancestors held, is recorded for us quite neatly and cleanly in the various books of the New Testament. They believed that He would be born to the Virgin, and that He would be born in Bethlehem, just as King Herod learned when he inquired of the best experts of the Jewish faith at the time, when Herod was looking for the Christ Child, just as it is neatly and cleanly recorded in the New Testament.

 

[freelight]

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks today about the interpretation, because it's done in the Church age, so it is not unbiased, and cannot be unbiased. Jews need to trust their ancestors who lived at the time of Christ, that what they believed then about the Messiah, is the only interpretation that matters, and much of that interpretation that the Jewish ancestors held, is recorded for us quite neatly and cleanly in the various books of the New Testament. They believed that He would be born to the Virgin, and that He would be born in Bethlehem, just as King Herod learned when he inquired of the best experts of the Jewish faith at the time, when Herod was looking for the Christ Child, just as it is neatly and cleanly recorded in the New Testament.

Religious traditions included or excluded, or whatever 'interpretations' are assumed, I think it best for anyone involved and using the story for their own edification to see what meaning and value the STORY can communicate, and if it can serve to inspire, empower or better a person to love, appreciate and serve 'God', then Hallelu-YAH

All else is indeed interesting from various Jewish or Christian perspectives when diving into details, but at the end of the day, its what the stories teach and communicate that matters, if they have any value whatsoever.

 

[Zeke]

Plus seeing the motifs Galatians 4:24 these stories morphed from dethrones the historical version being some time sensitive race to find deities hiding outside our temple/kingdom Luke 17:20-21 which is the starting and finishing point Galatians 4:1.

 

[freelight]

Plus seeing the motifs Galatians 4:24 these stories morphed from dethrones the historical version being some time sensitive race to find deities hiding outside our temple/kingdom Luke 17:20-21 which is the starting and finishing point Galatians 4:1.

Yes, here we've hashed out some of the Jewish objections to Jesus being THEIR Messiah, as other textual difficulties and controversies exist concerning the 'terms' and 'qualifications' for the Anointed One....while Christianity has developed its own 'Christology' from Jewish sources as well as other influxes channeled by Paul in his concept of a 'celestial Jesus' coming down to engage a 'crucifixion drama' to redeem (in some way) man from 'sin', then dying and being raised again the 3rd day,...'according to the scriptures',...although most Jews have rejected Jesus because they see no way Jesus fulfilling any of the Messianic prophecies (in their scriptures)....as Paul claims as existing (albiet apparently mysteriously or allegorically hidden)

The whole Messianic question of Jesus is ever conflated/confused by the failure of Jesus to fulfill Jewish expectations of what the Messiah would accomplish and the gospel of Paul which drives converts AWAY from faithful Torah observation for a doctrine of salvation by 'faith' alone (easy believism) as interpreted by some. Paul's gospel brings in besides its Jewish roots, elements of greek philosophy, mystery religion and gnosticism...which deviated so far from the original apostles of Jesus in Jerusalem, yet won the Gentiles over to his gospel, while the Jewish Jesus followers dissipated with the fall of Jerusalem....of which later 'church fathers' would call those original Jesus followers heretics! (being of the Ebionite, Nazarene, some Essene-like factions, and perhaps some early gnostic schools)...all in favor of Paul's gospel.

We would also note that the gospel narratives could be spun to support aspects of Paul's gospel, since they came along LATER, while the writer of Acts presents Paul in a favorable light as one taken into 'fellowship' with Paul, although the 'tension' between Jesus original apostles (the pillars and community) and Paul is evident elsewhere and further proved by history. Paul took his own 'version' of 'Jesus' and ran with it.