James White to Debate Bob Enyart on Open Theism

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I know, Bob.

And then we have to listen to .... "Well, let me give you a 10 page essay on what we really mean by the word, so you can understand what we are saying."

As if the word "change" is so darn complicated, hardly anyone knows what it REALLY means.

Cracks me up!!!!!

It cracks me up, to think you can enter into an ongoing discussion, with a mere 4 or 5 words of personal opinion, and be taken seriously.

The problem with your entire cult, is you are not open to learning from the Word of God. You cannot be bothered with study of Holy Scripture, but only want to talk theology from your finite perspectives.

And when discussion gets down to the nitty-gritty of discerning God's word for guidance, you and your ilk are more than quick to jump in and cause disruption.

How devilish is that? Whose tactics might those be? :devil: :devil:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
God decrees everything, Bob. Even the bad stuff. You call yourself a "pastor" but I doubt you've ever even read Isaiah 46, Isaiah 10, Romans 9, or John 6.

Read the Gordon Clark quote in Nang's sig, it destroys the self-worshipping implications of your statement.

The definition of "just" is "that which is in agreement with God." What higher standard do you have, Bob? Yourself? Probably, because you are an idolater who worships a God who cannot actually save his people from their sins. Heck, your idol doesn't even know whether a given unsaved man will ever come to repentance or not.

Do you pray for your lost friends, Bob? If so, why? After all, the god you worship cannot do anything for them.

You've made a god in your own image, Bob. You do not worship the God of the Bible, because you are not a Christian. You are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, and I pray that God will give you the ability to do so, that you might not be eternally damned.

:rotfl:
You guys are a hoot!!!!

Yeah, a hoot with a huge GULP attached. This one can't even keep his story straight. "Just" is God decreeing "bad stuff", and then commanding men to repent and believe while insisting they are unable to do so. He even claims to "pray". Why bother if everything is already decreed? :think:
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I know, Bob.

And then we have to listen to .... "Well, let me give you a 10 page essay on what we really mean by the word, so you can understand what we are saying."

As if the word "change" is so darn complicated, hardly anyone knows what it REALLY means.

Cracks me up!!!!!
The alternative is then to get your doctrine in thirty minutes of less or it is free, like Dominoe's Pizza? Or to live with sound bites on discussion forums? "Just Me and My Bible"? I think not. :AMR1:

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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God decrees everything, Bob. Even the bad stuff. You call yourself a "pastor" but I doubt you've ever even read Isaiah 46, Isaiah 10, Romans 9, or John 6.

It's been done, but no no one within the unsettled theist camp has taken up, read, and answered substantively. Rather tossing out the usual anti-Calvinist canards serves as a replacement for thoroughgoing analysis.

http://cdn.desiringgod.org/website_uploads/documents/e-books/pdfs/beyond-the-bounds-1388566368.pdf

AMR
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
No genuine Christian would ever dare to use language such as this, by suggesting that God is "criminal" in any of his holy purposes or decrees.

Such thinking and poor opinion, reflects nothing but rebellion in your heart against the goodness of the most Sovereign God Almighty.

:nono:

In fairness: I don't think Bob was saying God was criminal. He's saying the criminal (ie. a human criminal) acts according to his will. Which is actually true, in a sense. To paraphrase one of SF's posts from RPF: Humans aren't like puppets because humans have wills, and want to commit the sins they commit. Mind you, humans don't have FREE wills, but they do have wills. When you sin, you do sin willingly.

That said, his exegesis is still terrible and he's trying to win a debate using emotion. Its not going to work on me. I don't bring emotion to theological debates:p

Uh, Nang, it's you and Calvin that not only "suggest" but outright PROCLAIM God picks and chooses who to save based on nothing more than His Sovereign Whim. I can understand why you're in a panic and have gone into your raving maniac mode.

"Whim" makes it sound arbitrary. But its not. God has a reason for choosing those who he chooses. The reason just doesn't have anything to do with anything within the person being chosen. Rather, it is so that God can exercise all of his attributes, his justice and his mercy, that his purpose of election might stand (read Romans 9 again.)
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Yeah, a hoot with a huge GULP attached. This one can't even keep his story straight. "Just" is God decreeing "bad stuff", and then commanding men to repent and believe while insisting they are unable to do so. He even claims to "pray". Why bother if everything is already decreed? :think:

Well, at least the God I worship is actually able to cause Bob Enyart to believe the gospel.

The god you and Bob believe in isn't able to do that, so what's the point?

And yes, God commands people to do things they can't do. Deal with it.

The alternative is then to get your doctrine in thirty minutes of less or it is free, like Dominoe's Pizza? Or to live with sound bites on discussion forums? "Just Me and My Bible"? I think not. :AMR1:

AMR

lol! I actually became a Calvinist pretty much just by reading the Bible. Mind you, someone explained the idea to me, but I really, really didn't want to believe it. I believed it because I saw it throughout scripture and I didn't see any other exegetically sound option.
 

Tambora

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The alternative is then to get your doctrine in thirty minutes of less or it is free, like Dominoe's Pizza? Or to live with sound bites on discussion forums? "Just Me and My Bible"? I think not. :AMR1:

AMR
We're talking about the word "change", AMR.
Do you really think understanding what that word means is soooooooooo complicated?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Why bother if everything is already decreed? :think:
The decree includes the means to the ends. Prayer is but one of the means. Do you think you are somehow telling God something He does not already know? Or are you asking for something He has not already determined to give or not give? Does not Scripture teach the exact opposite of our privilege to pray to God?

Prayer is a means by which we draw nearer to God. God states that we should pray for the following reasons:

1. That the Lord God Himself should be honored through worship. (Isaiah 57:15; Jonah 2:9)
2. For our spiritual blessing, as a means for our growth in grace. (Psalms 116:1)
3. For our seeking from Him the things which we are in need. (James 4:2)

But here (reason #3 above) a difficulty to some presents itself. If God has foreordained, before the foundation of the world, everything which happens in time, what is the use of prayer? If it is true that God is sovereign, that is "of Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:30), then why pray?

Prayer is to acknowledge that God does know of what we are in need. Prayer is not required to inform of God with the knowledge of what we need, but is designed for us to confess to God of our sense of need. In this, as in everything, God's thoughts are not like our thoughts. God requires that His gifts should be sought after. God desires to be honored by our asking, just as He is to be thanked by us after He has bestowed His blessing upon us.

However, the question still remains, If God is sovereign, that is the Ordainer of everything that will happen, and the Regulator of all events, then isn’t prayer a profitless exercise?

One sufficient answer to these questions is that God admonishes us to pray, "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17). And again, "men ought always to pray" (Luke 18:1). Moreover, the Scriptures declare that "the prayer of faith shall save the sick," and "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" (James 5:15-16); and Christ, our perfect Example in all things, was foremost a Person of Prayer. Thus, it is evident, that prayer is neither meaningless nor valueless. But this still does not remove the difficulty nor answer the question: What then is the relationship between God's Sovereignty and Christian prayer?

To begin, I would assert with Scripture that prayer is not intended to change God's purpose, nor is it to move Him to form fresh purposes. God has decreed that certain events shall come to pass through the means He has appointed for their accomplishment. God has elected certain ones to be saved, but He has also decreed that these shall be converted through the preaching the Gospel. The Gospel, then, is one of the appointed means for the working out of the eternal counsel of the Lord; and prayer is another. God has decreed the means as well as the end, and among the means is prayer. Even the prayers of His people are included in His eternal decrees. Therefore, instead of prayers being in vain they are one the means through which God exercises His decrees.

That prayers for the execution of the very things decreed by God are not meaningless is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Elijah knew that God was about to give rain, but that did not prevent him from at once taking himself to prayer (James 5:17-18). Daniel "understood" by the writings of the prophets that the captivity was to last but seventy years, yet when these seventy years were almost ended we are told that he set his face "unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes" (Daniel 9:2-3). God told the prophet Jeremiah “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you.” (Jeremiah 29:11-12).

Here then is the design of prayer: not that God's will may be altered (for it cannot), but that it may be accomplished in His own good time and way. It is because God has promised certain things that we can ask for them with the full assurance of faith. It is God's purpose that His will is brought about by His own appointed means, and that He may do His people good upon His own terms, and that is, by the 'means' and 'terms' of entreaty and supplication. Did not Christ know for certain that after His death and resurrection He would be exalted by the Father? Of course He did. Yet we find Christ asking for this very thing in John 17:5: "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Did not Christ know that none of His people could perish? Yet He sought God the Father to "keep" them (John 17:11).

It should be remembered that God's will is immutable, and cannot be altered by our pleas. When the mind of God is not toward a people to do them good, it cannot be turned to them by the most fervent and troublesome prayer of those who have the greatest interest in Him: "Then the LORD said to me, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go!" (Jeremiah 15:1). Similarly, the prayers of Moses to enter the Promised Land are another example.

So, in summary, we have the answer, namely, that our prayers are in the ordaining, and that God has as much ordained His people's prayers as anything else He has ordained, and when we pray we are producing links in the chain of ordained facts. God decrees that we should pray—we pray; God decrees that we shall be answered, and the answer comes to us.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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We're talking about the word "change", AMR.
Do you really think understanding what that word means is soooooooooo complicated?
I am sorry, Tambora, but you have forfeited any obligation on my part to take you seriously as long as you continue with this flippant approach to sacred matters. Examine yourself with this current trajectory of yours. It is dangerous.

AMR
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
This comedy act just never stops!

First this clown doubts Bob even read the whole bible.
Now this same clown says Bob tries to win debates with emotions.

If Bob has any reading comprehension at all, he hasn't read the whole Bible.

This is so obvious that a 1st grader could understand it.

But then, this is coming from the guy who thought Ron Paul was pro-abortion, so my expectations are minimal (none, actually.)
 

glorydaz

Well-known member

So, I went to your link, and I see this verse. Numbers 23:19

Yet we see Jonah 3:9-10 and God did change His mind. And Ex. 32:13-14 where, because of Moses' intercession, God changed His mind. The way I see it, people can look at a certain set of verses (as those who deny the Deity of Christ do) and claim Jesus isn't God...He has a God, while ignoring the multitude of verses that clearly prove that Jesus is God. That's what I see happening with your proof texts....and any number of examples can be brought up. What good is prayer if God's will is set in stone? What kind of a God would not offer salvation to all men? What kind of a God would do part of the things in the BOOK and not the rest of what is written?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
In fairness: I don't think Bob was saying God was criminal. He's saying the criminal (ie. a human criminal) acts according to his will.

I don't think so . . .

The Open Theists oppose the teachings of the Sovereignty of God, just because they think Calvinism makes God answerable for all evil that occurs in the world and men.

Open Theists want to believe that God is mutable, just to keep Him innocent and give Him excuse from any and all bad events that happen in history.

They are totally unable to accept that God's eternal purpose is to remedy evil and to bring good out of all things for them who love Him.

They have no conception of the spiritual principle revealed in Genesis 50:20 and Romans 8:28.

But worse, they refuse to be taught such truth. John 3:19-20

So . . . they will continue to broadcast lies and laugh themselves into hell, for lack of faith and repentance of their unbelief.

So be it.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Nang, I have no doubt that Bob would consider the God of the Bible to be criminal. But I think in context of the actual statement in question he was talking about a human criminal. Then again, maybe I don't have good reading comprehension:p
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I am sorry, Tambora, but you have forfeited any obligation on my part to take you seriously as long as you continue with this flippant approach to sacred matters. Examine yourself with this current trajectory of yours. It is dangerous.

AMR

Amen.

Desperation and fear is being exhibited . . .
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
If Bob has any reading comprehension at all, he hasn't read the whole Bible.

This is so obvious that a 1st grader could understand it.

But then, this is coming from the guy who thought Ron Paul was pro-abortion, so my expectations are minimal (none, actually.)

And you brag about being so smart. :chuckle:

The schoolmaster isn't done with you yet, sonny boy. You can't graduate until that pride gets buried.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Amen.

Desperation and fear is being exhibited . . .

It's desperation when you see the general come on the field and insist some members of the opposing army need to retire because they aren't wearing the right uniforms. That's desperation. :chuckle:
 
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