Jadespring and 's/he-is-all-in-all'

[Ecumenicist]

What seems to be missed is it's not the words she used to convey her beliefs that's the issue, it's the concept itself compared to what Scriptures say. Whether jade says "we were always holy but believed a lie" or "we were always good but believed a lie" does little to alleviate the problem.

We told ourselves the lie, and we believed the lie, rather than trusting God.

We told ourselves the lie that we can, and we have to, make it on our own, because
we could no longer rely on God.

The lie was that because we are imperfect, God no longer loves us. Well, if God didn't
love Adam and Eve even after the sin, God wouldn't have given them clothes to cover
themselves, God wouldn't have allowed the earth to yield any fruit, God wouldn't have
marked Cain such that he would not be killed after God had judged him. God wouldn't
have preserved the seed of creation through the flood that the world might continue on.

Then Jesus came to tell us the truth, which is that even though we are imperfect, God
still loves us, because God made us good, and all we need to do is accept that to
find restoration, healing, and wholeness.

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

dave,
You just talked around what she said. Why not try replying to my last post to you, or did you need me to repost it for you again?

 

[Ecumenicist]

dave,
You just talked around what she said. Why not try replying to my last post to you, or did you need me to repost it for you again?

Actually, I directly supported what she said, based on my own theological viewpoints.

I cannot argue her argument, but if you want to pick apart my viewpoints, feel free

I will address one line you had previously, though:

We disobeyd God, then we felt guilty for doing it and hid. God did turn His back to us, remember the Flood? Remember Israel disobeying and God turning His back to them? Of course it's as simple as repenting to restore our relationship with God.

And this, I have to disagree with, because again, I argue that if God were to turn God's
back to humanity, even briefly, humanity would have no hope in repentence. If we turned
our dispositions around, if we repented, we would find ourselves crying at God's back,
rather than encountering God's open arms. The story of the prodigal son (or daughter)
explains quite clearly that God always awaits us with open arms, hoping we will return
to God's Loving household, or Kingdom...

WIth regard to the flood, I believe that God caused it, or let it happen, because it was
the most loving thing God could do for humantiy. I shudder to think of the alternative had
God not chosen to cleanse the earth, for I trust that God's Will is always the best course
in all things.

Same holds true for the times God "turned His back" on Israel. Had Israel not suffered
so in slavery and exile, the story of God's redemption and Glory might never have been
told, the exile especially led directly to the coming of the Messiah. God's purpose is
always Loving, though we cannot always perceive it. That's why Job and Paul both
said, who are we to question God? For God knows best, always, God's Will be done.

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

Actually, I directly supported what she said, based on my own theological viewpoints.

Since your memory seems so short, and you won't continue with the convo where we left off, let's have a refresher, shall we?

Jade: We never fell. We only think that we did and created a whole story to do with that idea. It was our mistake. We have always been holy* . We never 'fell' so to speak. We only think we did. Jesus came to liberate us from a 'guilt' and a primitive way of thinking that should have never happened.
So the outcome is still basically the same

*Changed to good

Me: I guess you missed the part, stated twice, that there was no fall and we were always holy. So you agree we were and are holy?

You: We were created "good," only God is "holy."

Do you still say you are "directly supporting" what jade is saying? It appears you disagreed with her back in post 269.

*************************************************************************************

I cannot argue her argument, but if you want to pick apart my viewpoints, feel free

Who asked you to? You know? You could actually take a minute and read my last post to you.

Here, for you convenience, once again, is the post you keep missing, try reading it this time:

We were created "good," only God is "holy."

"We never fell. We only think that we did and created a whole story to do with that idea. It was our mistake. We have always been holy* . We never 'fell' so to speak. We only think we did. Jesus came to liberate us from a 'guilt' and a primitive way of thinking that should have never happened.
So the outcome is still basically the same"

So you disagree with jade, correct?

Its fair game to suggest that the fall was self inflicted, we turned our backs on God due to our sense of guilt, but God never turned God's back on us. The OT has
mixed message on this, the hopeful texts say that God is waiting for Israel to turn back
towards God.

We disobeyd God, then we felt guilty for doing it and hid. God did turn His back to us, remember the Flood? Remember Israel disobeying and God turning His back to them? Of course it's as simple as repenting to restore our relationship with God.

If, in repentence, we have the opportunity to turn our dispositions back towards God,that implies that God is waiting with open arms, not with God's back turned towards
us...

If we aren't repentant, that's what we are, in rebellion. Repentance isn't just of the mouth, but of the heart. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Taking this into the context of how jade sees God...

We are and always were holy*. We simply started believing a lie about how evil we really are. Christ died so that men could feel "guilt-free" (read: feel good) about being holy* again.

That very concept undermines the entire Bible. Real Literal Christ really literally died to pay the real literal price for our real literal sin that other wise will be judged by a Real and Literal Just and Righteous Creator God.

Is it really a bad thing to ask jade if she interprets what is written about Christ in an esoteric spiritual way or literal way?

* Jade changed this to "good".

*************************************************************************************

I will address one line you had previously, though:

dave,you refuse to carry on the convo we have already started, so why bother picking up somewhere in the middle out of context? Let's see if you can read and reply to the last post written to you, then we can move on. Okay?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Since your memory seems so short, and you won't continue with the convo where we left off, let's have a refresher, shall we?

Jade: We never fell. We only think that we did and created a whole story to do with that idea. It was our mistake. We have always been holy* . We never 'fell' so to speak. We only think we did. Jesus came to liberate us from a 'guilt' and a primitive way of thinking that should have never happened.
So the outcome is still basically the same

*Changed to good

Me: I guess you missed the part, stated twice, that there was no fall and we were always holy. So you agree we were and are holy?

You: We were created "good," only God is "holy."

Do you still say you are "directly supporting" what jade is saying? It appears you disagreed with her back in post 269.

*************************************************************************************


Who asked you to? You know? You could actually take a minute and read my last post to you.

Here, for you convenience, once again, is the post you keep missing, try reading it this time:



"We never fell. We only think that we did and created a whole story to do with that idea. It was our mistake. We have always been holy* . We never 'fell' so to speak. We only think we did. Jesus came to liberate us from a 'guilt' and a primitive way of thinking that should have never happened.
So the outcome is still basically the same"

So you disagree with jade, correct?



We disobeyd God, then we felt guilty for doing it and hid. God did turn His back to us, remember the Flood? Remember Israel disobeying and God turning His back to them? Of course it's as simple as repenting to restore our relationship with God.



If we aren't repentant, that's what we are, in rebellion. Repentance isn't just of the mouth, but of the heart. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Taking this into the context of how jade sees God...

We are and always were holy*. We simply started believing a lie about how evil we really are. Christ died so that men could feel "guilt-free" (read: feel good) about being holy* again.

That very concept undermines the entire Bible. Real Literal Christ really literally died to pay the real literal price for our real literal sin that other wise will be judged by a Real and Literal Just and Righteous Creator God.

Is it really a bad thing to ask jade if she interprets what is written about Christ in an esoteric spiritual way or literal way?

* Jade changed this to "good".

*************************************************************************************



dave,you refuse to carry on the convo we have already started, so why bother picking up somewhere in the middle out of context? Let's see if you can read and reply to the last post written to you, then we can move on. Okay?

I'm lost, sorry. What's your point? There's alot of stuff there. I've aready said we
weren't made holy, we aren't holy, we were made good, we are good. Jade said the
same thing. I disagreed with her use of the word holy, yes, and then she recanted her
use of that word, and said "good" instead. We were made good. Its in the book. God
only makes good things. Only God is holy. How can I make my understanding any
clearer? How can Jade? What do you need to hear from me, or her, so we can move on
to the next point, whatever that is?

Can we clear up that one before we go on to the next one you want to explore?

 

[Nineveh]

I'm lost, sorry.

I look forward to your reply when you decide to catch up

we were made good, we are good.

Jade claims we never fell. The Bible doesn't agree. But I guess we can get into that when you decide to address the last post.

 

[Rimi]

I look forward to your reply when you decide to catch up
.

Can't good rep you.

Man, and I'm told I'M hard. Mmmmeeeeouch.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I look forward to your reply when you decide to catch up



Jade claims we never fell. The Bible doesn't agree. But I guess we can get into that when you decide to address the last post.

Yet she acknowledged that we perceived a fall, which I think she called an illusion.

I part from illusionists at this point, but that's OK.

I agree that the fall was our own doing, our own perception, but I also assert that the
fall is very real. Like a psychosomatic disease, the symptoms are real, regardless of the
source of the symptoms.

From the perspective of the fallen, the fall is very real.

 

[Nineveh]

Yet she acknowledged that we perceived a fall, which I think she called an illusion.

I part from illusionists at this point, but that's OK.

So you do still disagree with her?

I agree that the fall was our own doing, our own perception, but I also assert that the fall is very real. Like a psychosomatic disease, the symptoms are real, regardless of the source of the symptoms.

From the perspective of the fallen, the fall is very real.

....or don't you?

You seem to want it both ways, dave.

"Very real" in an esoteric spiritualized way or a literal way?

You and I seem to agree men were created "good". Where we seen to be running into trouble is if we really, literally ever fell or not. Was God joking or meaning something different when He said every thought of or hearts was only evil all time? Are you seeing this like jade, that that was merely a symptom of buying into a lie about being "fallen", not really literally that we had?

 

[Ecumenicist]

So you do still disagree with her?

....or don't you?

You seem to want it both ways, dave.

"Very real" in an esoteric spiritualized way or a literal way?

You and I seem to agree men were created "good". Where we seen to be running into trouble is if we really, literally ever fell or not. Was God joking or meaning something different when He said every thought of or hearts was only evil all time? Are you seeing this like jade, that that was merely a symptom of buying into a lie about being "fallen", not really literally that we had?

From humanity's viewpoint, the fall is literal.

From God's view? I can't speak for God. Scripture says we were expelled by God,
but scripture also says God is unchanging and never stopped loving us.

I think we turned our backs on God, not the other way around.

And I think this is what Jade was actually trying to say, although I could be wrong. I tend
to give people the benefit of doubt, even you Nin

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

From humanity's viewpoint, the fall is literal.

From God's view? I can't speak for God. Scripture says we were expelled by God,
but scripture also says God is unchanging and never stopped loving us.

Perhaps you should read Pastor Enyart's new post to Battle Royal X.

God Himself inspired the Word to be written. He tells us we are indeed fallen. I'm not sure why you refrain from believing what God tells us about man's fallen state.

I think we turned our backs on God, not the other way around.

We disobeyed God. I think He noticed that and had it recorded so we wouldn't forget the chain of events.

And I think this is what Jade was actually trying to say, although I could be wrong.

But that's not what she said, is it dave? "We were always good, we never fell".

I tend
to give people the benefit of doubt, even you Nin

Based on personal experience, I hope you won't mind if I don't believe you.

 

[Jadespring]

But that's not what she said, is it dave? "We were always good, we never fell".
.

I'm going to pop in here and try to clarify something Nin because you still seem to be fixating on that line after I have continuously said that is not what I meant to convey and I made mistake in typing out those words that way. So basically you're continuing to try to have a conversation, now with someone else about nothing. But it's amusing to say the least I guess.
I'm also really trying to understand you're purpose for doing so. It seems quite silly in my mind.

Anyways in terms of 'the fall.'

What I was intending to refer to in that comment was the of specific concept 'original sin'- as a specfic theological interpretation of the story and the Fall leading specifically to humans then being born evil from then on. Hence it was in reference to a particular interpretation and concept of the sin that happened in that story.
My problems here are steming from the fact that much of the language that I use to describe many of these theological concepts is different then what you use and in trying to speak to you on your terms, which also means I have to try to understand your terms things get muddled.
My frustration in continuing this convo comes from when I ask you questions, so that I can try to understand and thus explain better, and they are ignored, refused or derogatory and insulting comments are returned.
Converstions of this nature are two way streets if you are really interested in getting to the root of these issue. If you're only goal is to prove that I'm wrong and you're right then....
So up to you...
If you want to actually dialoge and figure me out. Then I' m game.
If not then this has just been a brief appearance and you can go back to you're regularly scheduled program.

Oh yes and just to answer anotehr question you keep asking.

Jesus was a real person, who liveed breathed and died. The Gospels are sacred records of the experiences and teachings that he brought to us.

 

[Nineveh]

Jade,
You've left this thread 3 or 4 times now, if we decided to try one more time will you just leave again? It's not like I haven't asked you to clarify what you meant, or at least point me to the posts where you claim you already have.

But let's try this and see where it goes:

What I was intending to refer to in that comment was the of specific concept 'original sin'- as a specfic theological interpretation of the story and the Fall leading specifically to humans then being born evil from then on. Hence it was in reference to a particular interpretation and concept of the sin that happened in that story.

"My reflection on Genesis story is a little different. We never fell. We only think that we did and created a whole story to do with that idea. It was our mistake. We have always been good. We never 'fell' so to speak. We only think we did. Jesus came to liberate us from a 'guilt' and a primitive way of thinking that should have never happened."

So with your first statement, and your revision, do you believe men are basically good? Have they always been? Who introduced the "lie" that men's hearts tend towards evil?

Would you please answer my question? How do you interpret what is written about Christ. Is that in a "esoteric spirtualized" way or a literal way?

 

[Balder]

Is there anything wrong in particular with an esoteric or spiritualized understanding of something in the Bible? Isn't there precedent in the Bible for teachings, messages, and theological concepts, among other things, to be "hidden" in signs and symbols? Didn't Jesus teach some "inner meanings" of his parables to his disciples that he didn't teach publicly?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Perhaps you should read Pastor Enyart's new post to Battle Royal X.

God Himself inspired the Word to be written. He tells us we are indeed fallen.

Indeed. God affirms our perspective. God also says, through Christ, that God waits
for us with open arms.

I'm not sure why you refrain from believing what God tells us about man's fallen state.

I don't...

We disobeyed God. I think He noticed that and had it recorded so we wouldn't forget the chain of events.

I quite agree, its the loving thing to do. Remind us that when we turn our backs on
God, we isolate ourselves from God.

But that's not what she said, is it dave? "We were always good, we never fell".

How about answering Jade's suggestion that "the fall" does not necessarily mean that
we are "born evil." Now being born evil is an Augustinian and consequently
Calvanistic concept I believe, not necessarily scriptural in origin, how do you feel about
that Nin? Are we born utterly depraved due to the actions of Adam and Eve?

 

[Nineveh]

Is there anything wrong in particular with an esoteric or spiritualized understanding of something in the Bible? Isn't there precedent in the Bible for teachings, messages, and theological concepts, among other things, to be "hidden" in signs and symbols? Didn't Jesus teach some "inner meanings" of his parables to his disciples that he didn't teach publicly?

Well, from what jade has said, it's not one or the other, but both. Interpretation by esoteric spiritualization.

I like the dictionary

esoteric: Intended for or understood by only a particular group. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people. Confined to a small group. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

spiritualize: To impart a spiritual nature to. To invest with or treat as having a spiritual sense or meaning.

For jade to understand the bible she has chosen to interpret it by thinking herself in a select group who can make the things stated literally into wholey spiritual things. That gives people who feel as jade does the leeway to redefine the Law. In the end we find God is not really saying what He says in the context He means it but He is really saying the exact opposite, but you must be a star belly sneetch to understand that. God does not hide the "milk" from humanity, but the "meat" shouldn't disagree with the "milk", if God's claim is True and He is not the author of confusion.

 

[Nineveh]

Indeed. God affirms our perspective. God also says, through Christ, that God waits
for us with open arms.

For those who seek Him, while those who do not have another destination.

I quite agree, its the loving thing to do. Remind us that when we turn our backs on God, we isolate ourselves from God.

We can agree on this

How about answering Jade's suggestion that "the fall" does not necessarily mean that we are "born evil."

We are born to fallen humans. Our Righteousness comes from Christ. At the age of accountability we must decide who's righteousness will cover us. Jesus's or our own.

Now being born evil is an Augustinian and consequently
Calvanistic concept I believe, not necessarily scriptural in origin, how do you feel about
that Nin? Are we born utterly depraved due to the actions of Adam and Eve?

I don't believe we are "utterly depraved", but because of our fallen sinful state our hearts tend toward evil.

 

[Jadespring]

Jade,
You've left this thread 3 or 4 times now, if we decided to try one more time will you just leave again? It's not like I haven't asked you to clarify what you meant, or at least point me to the posts where you claim you already have.

But let's try this and see where it goes:



"My reflection on Genesis story is a little different. We never fell. We only think that we did and created a whole story to do with that idea. It was our mistake. We have always been good. We never 'fell' so to speak. We only think we did. Jesus came to liberate us from a 'guilt' and a primitive way of thinking that should have never happened."

So with your first statement, and your revision, do you believe men are basically good? Have they always been? Who introduced the "lie" that men's hearts tend towards evil?

Would you please answer my question? How do you interpret what is written about Christ. Is that in a "esoteric spirtualized" way or a literal way?

I answered it.
Jesus was a man who lived breathed etc..........

 

[Jadespring]

Well, from what jade has said, it's not one or the other, but both. Interpretation by esoteric spiritualization.

You've misunderstood then.
[

For jade to understand the bible she has chosen to interpret it by thinking herself in a select group who can make the things stated literally into wholey spiritual things.

Excuse me Nin but this is you're interpretation about me.
"My way" as you call it is neither special or select. It's been happening since Jesus died.
It's not some mystical club. Do you ever read anything by historic theologians or Church theological history?

That gives people who feel as jade does the leeway to redefine the Law. In the end we find God is not really saying what He says in the context He means it but He is really saying the exact opposite, but you must be a star belly sneetch to understand that. God does not hide the "milk" from humanity, but the "meat" shouldn't disagree with the "milk", if God's claim is True and He is not the author of confusion.

Nin. I'm sorry but you are still not getting it.

Put you're dictionary away.

It has absolutely nothing to do with hidden and secret meanings. But hey I like you're imagination. Changing the words esoteric and spirtual into a verb and action as you have is interesting. I've never heard it been phrase before like that.

It also does not mean that you read something and assume the exact opposite. It is also not about redefining everything. Nothing I say is new by any stretch of the imagination.
Only new to you I guess.

 

[Ecumenicist]

For those who seek Him, while those who do not have another destination.
We can agree on this
We are born to fallen humans. Our Righteousness comes from Christ. At the age of accountability we must decide who's righteousness will cover us. Jesus's or our own.
don't believe we are "utterly depraved", but because of our fallen sinful state our hearts tend toward evil.

So, is fallenness genetic, or learned?