Is the Law meant as a way of being "saved" or getting to heaven?

C

chair

Well-known member
Where in the Hebrew Bible ("Old" Testament) does it say that the Law is a means of being saved or getting to Heaven? I know that some of the later Christian writings claim that it was- and a failed way at that. Since one could not possibly observe the Law completely, the net result was that the Law only showed how humans can't be "saved" by the Law- it only condemns them. Thus the need for Grace.

What OT verses show that the Law was a way of getting "saved" in the first place? Old Testament only, please.
 
H

Hawkins

Active member
chair said:
Where in the Hebrew Bible ("Old" Testament) does it say that the Law is a means of being saved or getting to Heaven? I know that some of the later Christian writings claim that it was- and a failed way at that. Since one could not possibly observe the Law completely, the net result was that the Law only showed how humans can't be "saved" by the Law- it only condemns them. Thus the need for Grace.

What OT verses show that the Law was a way of getting "saved" in the first place? Old Testament only, please.
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Mosaic Law is part of the covenant granted to the Jews. A covenant is granted under the circumstance that no one can observe God's Law in full. Thus Mosaic Law is set aside for the Jews to observe.

A covenant simply says, "because you cannot abide by God's Law in full, now a set of Law is set aside which you are expected to be able to observe. Such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ."

Luke 10:25-28 (NIV)
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

However in Jesus time few Jews can observe Mosaic Law in full. Thus both the Jews and Gentiles will rely on the New Covenant to be saved, generally speaking.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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chair said:
What OT verses show that the Law was a way of getting "saved" in the first place? Old Testament only, please.
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It says do this and live. And yes, after the fact it is shown that it is a tutor to show your need for God to save you.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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However, using chair logic, Daniel and Isaiah claims are false because Moses didn't say it first. All of this is moot anyway, as chair has repeatedly said he doesn't believe them.
 
C

chair

Well-known member
Nick M said:
It says do this and live. And yes, after the fact it is shown that it is a tutor to show your need for God to save you.
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Yes. It does. But "live" in the usual sense of the term. It doesn't say "live in the afterlife". Perhaps you can show me some verses that say otherwise?
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
chair said:
Where in the Hebrew Bible ("Old" Testament) does it say that the Law is a means of being saved or getting to Heaven? I know that some of the later Christian writings claim that it was- and a failed way at that. Since one could not possibly observe the Law completely, the net result was that the Law only showed how humans can't be "saved" by the Law- it only condemns them. Thus the need for Grace.

What OT verses show that the Law was a way of getting "saved" in the first place? Old Testament only, please.
Click to expand...

The first challenge is finding OT evidence of belief in life after death and an understanding of man's partaking of resurrection to see God. If you read Job, you find a very strong statement in that regard :

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 19:25-27
 
jamie

jamie

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Hawkins said:
Mosaic Law is part of the covenant granted to the Jews. A covenant is granted under the circumstance that no one can observe God's Law in full. Thus Mosaic Law is set aside for the Jews to observe.
Click to expand...

The law was given to all Israel, not just Jews. Moses was not a Jew.

Jews could not serve in God's sanctuary.
 
jamie

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
chair said:
Yes. It does. But "live" in the usual sense of the term. It doesn't say "live in the afterlife". Perhaps you can show me some verses that say otherwise?
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The man asked about eternal life. However, the man had already sinned with the penalty of dying twice hanging over him.

Now what?
 
W

Wick Stick

Well-known member
I think that the priesthood, not the Law, was there for that purpose. The Law condemns. The priesthood propitiates and mediates, whereby the people are saved from God's wrath.

A good example stands just prior to the giving of the Law, in the 'golden calf incident.' God was of a mind to destroy all Israel. Instead, at Moses behest, both the priesthood and the 10 commandments were established.

Also, note that "saved" is mostly modern church jargon. The New Testament uses the words 'quickened' or 'resurrected' to describe the regenerative event.
 
jamie

jamie

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chair said:
I don't understand what you are saying? Which man? When?
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You asked, "Yes. It does. But 'live' in the usual sense of the term. It doesn't say 'live in the afterlife'. Perhaps you can show me some verses that say otherwise?"

Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

So he answered and said, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
 
C

chair

Well-known member
jamie said:
You asked, "Yes. It does. But 'live' in the usual sense of the term. It doesn't say 'live in the afterlife'. Perhaps you can show me some verses that say otherwise?"

Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

So he answered and said, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
Click to expand...

So we are back to New Testament quotes.
If you read the Old Testament, you will see that the promise (or reward) for obeying God's laws is that the nation of Israel will continue to live in their land for many generation. Not Heaven. Not afterlife. Real life in this world, in the promised land.

Deuteronomy 11:
21 so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land the Lord swore to give your ancestors, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.
 
jamie

jamie

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Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God. (That's the NT in a nutshell.)

We only live twice. (That's the OT in a nutshell.)
 
Crucible

Crucible

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chair said:
Where in the Hebrew Bible ("Old" Testament) does it say that the Law is a means of being saved or getting to Heaven? I know that some of the later Christian writings claim that it was- and a failed way at that. Since one could not possibly observe the Law completely, the net result was that the Law only showed how humans can't be "saved" by the Law- it only condemns them. Thus the need for Grace.

What OT verses show that the Law was a way of getting "saved" in the first place? Old Testament only, please.
Click to expand...

The Law's primary purpose was to chasten societies willing to be obedient so that they resembled more of what God intended for mankind. It was meant for people to be more like Him and less like the world.

In return, God would lead them into power and prosperity. When God's chosen became disobedient, He cursed them, and likewise He blessed them when they were obedient.
That was the point of it all, it didn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.
 
B

Ben Masada

New member
chair said:
Where in the Hebrew Bible ("Old" Testament) does it say that the Law is a means of being saved or getting to Heaven? I know that some of the later Christian writings claim that it was- and a failed way at that. Since one could not possibly observe the Law completely, the net result was that the Law only showed how humans can't be "saved" by the Law- it only condemns them. Thus the need for Grace.

What OT verses show that the Law was a way of getting "saved" in the first place? Old Testament only, please.
Click to expand...

Please, read Psalm 119. There are many verses in that Psalm with the same logical guarantee of verse 93. "I will never neglect Your precepts, for You have preserved my life through them." If the Lord has preserved our life through the observance of the Law, it is only obvious that we have achieved salvation from all sorts of life troubles as a result of obedience of God's Law. To have our life preserved is the same as to have it saved.
 
W

Wick Stick

Well-known member
Ben Masada said:
Please, read Psalm 119. There are many verses in that Psalm with the same logical guarantee of verse 93. "I will never neglect Your precepts, for You have preserved my life through them." If the Lord has preserved our life through the observance of the Law, it is only obvious that we have achieved salvation from all sorts of life troubles as a result of obedience of God's Law. To have our life preserved is the same as to have it saved.
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Agreed.

This is also the reason why the New Testament doesn't talk about "gettin' saved" but instead speaks of walking out salvation.
 
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