Is "soul sleep" a Scriptural doctrine?

[genuineoriginal]

Brevity... I'd like to force people to read 1 Corinthians 15 also (whole chapter) and a hundred other scriptures but I know it isn't going to happen.

Short and sweet does not always work well with Paul's long and rambling sentences.

The famous "Rapture" passage begins with Paul talking about what will happen to dead Christians.
Paul explains that dead Christians will rise from the dead when Jesus comes back from heaven, then the Christians that did not die will join them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I am always amazed whenever people quote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 without including 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

We are discussing whether "soul sleep" is scriptural.
Paul speaks of Christians that have already died by the time Paul is writing this letter.
Paul says that they are asleep.

GO, "sleep" is used as a euphemism throughout the Bible.

It's referring to those who are dead. It has little to nothing to do with the state of a person's spirit.

 

[Rosenritter]

GO, "sleep" is used as a euphemism throughout the Bible.

It's referring to those who are dead. It has little to nothing to do with the state of a person's spirit.

So, all we would need now to support the theory that the dead are really alive (in spirit) is to show where the bible plainly says that the spirit without the body is alive, has thought, feeling, emotion, and awareness. But the bible doesn't speak in that fashion. We need air to live, but it doesn't mean the air is alive. The life belongs to God, and God is the only one that can restore life. He wouldn't need to restore life if we were already alive.

Joh 5:26-29 KJV
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A claim that the dead really live preempts the doctrine of the resurrection and makes it unnecessary. Christ himself proved that the dead can not be considered alive in any sense other than the promise of the future resurrection, as the only sense.

 

[Rosenritter]

Tell that to Robert Pate:

Robert's psychopannychia:

Sigh.

AMR

For those of you who haven't read Calvin's Pyschopannachia it's funny in a very sad way.

He starts of by railing against that nefarious herd of Anabaptists (who apparently are his opponents) and then admits that he has never actually listened to or talked to them or read any of their writings. He bases his logic on a passage that says "no peace for the wicked" and neglects to notice that his passage does not say "the dead wicked" but when the Bible does speak of the dead wicked in Job it says that they are at peace and ceased from troubling.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/calvin_psychopannychia.html

That Calvin's particular writing had any impact at all is more of a testament that Calvin had personal influence, rather than any soundness of doctrine. I'd originally read it to see why it was given any credit with the thought of a written rebuttal, then deemed that there is no glory winning the proverbial battle of wits with an unarmed opponent (there, that's nicer than what I was going to say.)

 

[genuineoriginal]

GO, "sleep" is used as a euphemism throughout the Bible.

It's referring to those who are dead. It has little to nothing to do with the state of a person's spirit.

The spirit is the life-force used to animate the body to create the soul.

The body has no self-awareness.
The spirit has no self-awareness.

Only the soul has self-awareness.

Without the spirit, the body is dead, and there is no soul to have self-awareness.

 

[way 2 go]

Is there a spiritual body?

yes .

Joh_4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Rom_8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[jamie]

Paul is with Jesus , Paul's body is in the ground awaiting the resurrection. :carryon:

When do we and Paul receive our spiritual body?

 

[way 2 go]

When do we and Paul receive our spiritual body?

when do you receive a soul ?

 

[Rosenritter]

when do you receive a soul ?

You don't receive a soul, you are created as a soul.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[glorydaz]

You don't receive a soul, you are created as a soul.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yep, soul is used as a "living being". We are living souls.

Genesis 46:22 These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.​

But we also have a soul. Part of the inner man, and we receive it when we are conceived in our mother's womb.

Hebrews 4:12 [
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[glorydaz]

I am always amazed whenever people quote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 without including 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

We are discussing whether "soul sleep" is scriptural.
Paul speaks of Christians that have already died by the time Paul is writing this letter.
Paul says that they are asleep.

I'm not dead when I'm asleep. :banana:

 

[glorydaz]

"who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past and they overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:18)

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

The resurrection refers to the body. Man is more than the tent in which he dwells.

 

[Rosenritter]

Yep, soul is used as a "living being". We are living souls.

Genesis 46:22 These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.​

But we also have a soul. Part of the inner man, and we receive it when we are conceived in our mother's womb.

Hebrews 4:12 [
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

The best general rule to remember is the soul of man is the whole of man. Hebrews 4:12 is consistent with this, as the whole man can be separated from the spirit which also has a meaning of the breath of life. We see similar usage in Job and Revelation:

Job 27:2-3 KJV
(2) As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
(3) All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Revelation 11:11 KJV
(11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


The passage in 1 Thessalonians 5;23 does seem to use "spirit" in a different form; It may not mean "spirit of life" but could also mean any of a variety of meanings that is allowed by that word, including in the sense of a "meek and quiet spirit" (1 Peter 3:4) or "spirit of glory" (1 Peter 4:14) meaning that intangible spiritual part of ourselves that defines us. Regardless, the clear intent of the passage is that we are sanctified wholly, and these may not be so much separable independent parts but rather different angles or means of reference.

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm not dead when I'm asleep. :banana:

John 11:11-14 KJV
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Sleep is an analogy for death that we can relate to because we see it every day, not the actual thing itself. Thus we would expect that death is more likened to sleep than waking, unconsciousness rather than consciousness, lack of perception and thought rather than wide eyes and an alert mind.

 

[Rosenritter]

The resurrection refers to the body. Man is more than the tent in which he dwells.

My car is more than simply a mass of metal and glass and rubber, but watch how well it works if you remove the metal and glass and rubber.

 

[glorydaz]

The best general rule to remember is the soul of man is the whole of man. Hebrews 4:12 is consistent with this, as the whole man can be separated from the spirit which also has a meaning of the breath of life. We see similar usage in Job and Revelation:

Except you'll notice Heb. is speaking of the Word of God.

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

Nothing to do with the breath of life or being separated from the spirit at death.

This verse in Hebrew is talking about how the Word of God "is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart". It's speaking of the Gospel and believing, and how the Word separates the flesh and it's lusts from the mind/will/emotions (soul) and the spirit (which is the innermost man by which we communicate with God). Reading the word shows us that man is body, soul and spirit...three distinct parts, and keeps us from being ruled by our flesh or soulish pleasures.

Some say soul and spirit are the same inner man, but many say we are tripartite (as pictured by the Temple courts). Which is my belief.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;​

 

[glorydaz]

My car is more than simply a mass of metal and glass and rubber, but watch how well it works if you remove the metal and glass and rubber.

Man is not a car. We were created in the image of GOD. God doesn't need a body to get things done.

 

[glorydaz]

The passage in 1 Thessalonians 5;23 does seem to use "spirit" in a different form; It may not mean "spirit of life" but could also mean any of a variety of meanings that is allowed by that word, including in the sense of a "meek and quiet spirit" (1 Peter 3:4) or "spirit of glory" (1 Peter 4:14) meaning that intangible spiritual part of ourselves that defines us. Regardless, the clear intent of the passage is that we are sanctified wholly, and these may not be so much separable independent parts but rather different angles or means of reference.

Yes, spirit has more than one meaning, just as soul does. Man must commune with God through his spirit....spirit to SPIRIT.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.​

 

[glorydaz]

yes .

Joh_4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Rom_8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

I'd missed this. Amen, brother. Just what I was talking about. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

John 11:11-14 KJV
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Sleep is an analogy for death that we can relate to because we see it every day, not the actual thing itself. Thus we would expect that death is more likened to sleep than waking, unconsciousness rather than consciousness, lack of perception and thought rather than wide eyes and an alert mind.

That's because they can't see inside the tent.