Is MAD ethics and or morals void? Is MAD ethics even Christian?

Right Divider

Body part
Forget using Hillary Clinton as a specific example. Perhaps that's too much of a hypothetical for your mind to wrap itself around. Just keep it generic if that helps. Just assume a severely backslidden Christian finds himself before God on the day of redemption and respond to the following...
No matter how "severely backslidden" a Christian is, they are still saved End of story.
As I say above, there are only three real possibilities for the severely backslidden who find themselves before Christ's Bema seat. I see no way to deny my position without denying free will.
1Cor 3:15 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

End of story.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
No matter how "severely backslidden" a Christian is, they are still saved End of story.

1Cor 3:15 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

End of story.
Ideas have consequences Right Divider, as you well know! Why will you not engage the argument?


On that day, one of three things will happen...

Option 1: She (i.e. a severely backslidden Christian) joyfully embraces God as He truly is
If this is your answer, then you're conceding my core point without realizing it.
By taking this option, you'd be effectively admitting that what matters is not the profession alone, but whether the will ultimately aligns with God’s righteousness once truth is fully revealed. That means the decisive factor is what one loves when the truth is known.

Option 2: She hates God’s righteousness and rejects Him
This answer would explicitly endorse my position by acknowledging that a person can be sealed and delivered, but still refuse fellowship with God when confronted with who He actually is. At that point, the only remaining question is whether God forces eternal fellowship on someone who despises Him...

Option 3: God forcibly alters her will so that she embraces Him
This is the option that I think most Christians implicitly assume without ever admitting it.
This option is the equivalent of saying that love, allegiance, and worship are manufactured by divine fiat, not freely given. That reduces heaven to a kind of moral reprogramming, not a real relationship.

Options 1 & 2 acknowledge my position, either tacitly or explicitly. Option 3 denies free will, which collapses the concepts of love, relationship, righteousness, faith, allegiance, etc. and turns God into either a kidnapper who holds people against their will or Calvin's version of God who alters our will by fiat.

I am reasonably certain that those three options exhaust every rational possibility but, as I said, if you can refute it or show me another option then I'll be happy to read all about it.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
@Right Divider for clarification, we all recognize that Judgement Day is for those who utterly reject God, and that the Bema Seat Judgement comes after that, right?

"Sealed unto the day of redemption" means you make it past Judgement Day, as I understand it. (@Clete does this help make your point clearer?)
 

Nick M

God and sinners reconciled
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Option 2: She hates God’s righteousness and rejects Him
This answer would explicitly endorse my position by acknowledging that a person can be sealed and delivered, but still refuse fellowship with God when confronted with who He actually is. At that point, the only remaining question is whether God forces eternal fellowship on someone who despises Him...
It was Delmar who said right here (to the dead babies question)

Heaven isn't a prison.

I think if someone is that stupid and chooses to shake their fist at him, they don't go to the lake of fire, but they do leave heaven. Yes, this is conjecture to what we don't know.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
@Right Divider for clarification, we all recognize that Judgement Day is for those who utterly reject God, and that the Bema Seat Judgement comes after that, right?

"Sealed unto the day of redemption" means you make it past Judgement Day, as I understand it. (@Clete does this help make your point clearer?)
I am under the impression, although I could not establish it at the moment, that the day of redemption is the day when the process begins of Christians going through a judgement where we will receive rewards or suffer the loss of rewards. (I Corinthians 3:13–15; II Corinthians 5:10)

This is what I understand to be the Bema Seat of Christ and it seems to me that it would happen immediately following the rapture.

Are you suggesting that they are not the same thing or have I misunderstood you?


When I was a teenager, I was into eschatology and sort of got burned by it. Ever since then, I've treated it as the side issue of all side issues, which I admit was likely an over reaction. The point being that I may very well have the sequence of events wrong. It wouldn't surprise me a bit.
 
Last edited:

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
It was Delmar who said right here (to the dead babies question)
I don't follow. What "dead babies question", and how does it connect to Option 2?

I think if someone is that stupid and chooses to shake their fist at him, they don't go to the lake of fire, but they do leave heaven. Yes, this is conjecture to what we don't know.
Everyone who doesn't end up in either the New Heaven or the New Earth will find the Lake of Fire. Right?
 

Right Divider

Body part
@Right Divider for clarification, we all recognize that Judgement Day is for those who utterly reject God, and that the Bema Seat Judgement comes after that, right?
Yes, I brought that up already.
"Sealed unto the day of redemption" means you make it past Judgement Day, as I understand it.
@Clete seems to believe that there is some sort of "day of decision". I've never heard of it and cannot find it in scripture.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
For the sake of argument, let's suppose that she did. Assume Hillary Clinton made a genuine profession of faith at some point in her life and was saved under Paul’s gospel, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and will be delivered to the day of redemption. On that day, one of three things will happen...


Option 1: She joyfully embraces God as He truly is
If this is your answer, then you're conceding my core point without realizing it.
By taking this option, you'd be effectively admitting that what matters is not the profession alone, but whether the will ultimately aligns with God’s righteousness once truth is fully revealed. That means the decisive factor is what one loves when the truth is known.


Option 2: She hates God’s righteousness and rejects Him
This answer would explicitly endorse my position by acknowledging that a person can be sealed and delivered, but still refuse fellowship with God when confronted with who He actually is. At that point, the only remaining question is whether God forces eternal fellowship on someone who despises Him...


Option 3: God forcibly alters her will so that she embraces Him
This is the option that I think most Christians implicitly assume without ever admitting it.
This option is the equivalent of saying that love, allegiance, and worship are manufactured by divine fiat, not freely given. That reduces heaven to a kind of moral reprogramming, not a real relationship.


Options 1 & 2 acknowledge my position, either tacitly or explicitly. Option 3 denies free will, which collapses the concepts of love, relationship, righteousness, faith, allegiance, etc. and turns God into either a kidnapper who holds people against their will or Calvin's version of God who alters our will by fiat.


I am reasonably certain that those three options exhaust every rational possibility but, as I said, if you can refute it or show me another option then I'll be happy to read all about it.
determined before judgement day
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord


(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
On what day? It seems that you have invented a "day of decision". That day does not exist.
Now which of us is being dishonest, RD?

The Day of Redemption is the day we are discussing. I'm pretty sure you knew that already.

I cannot refute something that does not exist.
Then don't refute anything. Just respond to the following....

A woman grows up in church, becomes a believer in Christ and is genuinely saved. Later in life, she allows sin to pile up, she surrounds herself with fools, maybe she experiences serious tragedy in her life that she is taught is part of God's plan, and by whatever means she allows her heart to grow cold, and bitterness becomes the theme of her life to the point that she despises God and everything righteous is seen as evil in her eyes.

When the day of redemption comes - whenever that is and whatever it entails is beside the point - whenever it comes she will be there, if for no other reason, because of the Holy Spirit which was given to her as a guarantee. Now, the question is, what happens once she is there? I see that there are three and only three possibilities...

Option 1: She joyfully embraces God as He truly is
If this is your answer, then you're conceding my core point without realizing it.
By taking this option, you'd be effectively admitting that what matters is not the profession alone, but whether the will ultimately aligns with God’s righteousness once truth is fully revealed. That means the decisive factor is what one loves when the truth is known.

Option 2: She hates God’s righteousness and rejects Him
This answer would explicitly endorse my position by acknowledging that a person can be sealed and delivered, but still refuse fellowship with God when confronted with who He actually is. At that point, the only remaining question is whether God forces eternal fellowship on someone who despises Him, which leads to the third option...

Option 3: God forcibly alters her will so that she embraces Him
This is the option that I think most Christians implicitly assume without ever admitting it.
This option is the equivalent of saying that love, allegiance, and worship are manufactured by divine fiat, not freely given. That reduces heaven to a kind of moral reprogramming, not a real relationship.

Options 1 & 2 acknowledge my position, either tacitly or explicitly. Option 3 denies free will, which collapses the concepts of love, relationship, righteousness, faith, allegiance, etc. and turns God into either a kidnapper who holds people against their will or Calvin's version of God who alters our will by fiat.


If there is a fourth option, I can't see it. The only other thing I've been able to come up with is some sort of secondary area where such people are removed from the regular part of heaven but not condemned either. The idea being a place where they can be rehabilitated. This idea sounds more and more and more like a jailhouse in heaven. Meaning that it becomes more and more absurd the longer you think about it. If standing face to face with God Himself doesn't rehabilitate you, then no amount of counseling or education or reprogramming is going to do it.

Now, just because I can't think of a viable fourth option doesn't mean there isn't one. Maybe you can come up with something I haven't thought of that renders the whole issue moot. If so, I really am eager to hear of it.

Maybe there is no need for a fourth option. As I granted a few posts ago, it could well be that there turns out to be no such person who decides to reject God (option 2). I am not here suggesting that there MUST be people who do so, but simply that because we have free will and because God is not a magician and cannot force someone to love Him, then the possibility of such a person exists. There is an important difference between will not and cannot.

Lastly, to reiterate, my position here is based on the biblical fact that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption", that this seal cannot be broken apart from God forfeiting His earnest payment, which is Himself, and on the fact that relationship, love, righteousness and all things moral are volitional by their very nature and cannot be coerced or otherwise forced, which is a concept that is ubiquitous throughout very nearly all of Christian philosophy, most especially the scripture. In short, this is not conjecture or mere speculation but a rational line of reasoning based on clearly taught biblical precepts that are not in dispute.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
determined before judgement day
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord


(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
Neither passage refers to a person who is severely backslidden. As such your post is unresponsive to the question at hand.

We are not here talking about the average Christian, and even less about people who we might consider to be strong in the faith. Their reaction to meeting God is obvious and not even in dispute.

The Calvinists say that a severely backslidden Christian was only ever a Christian in name only and was never actually saved. This position, it turns out, is unfalsifiable. As is nearly the entirety of the Calvinist system.

The Arminians say that a severely backslidden Christian has walked away from his faith in God and, by his own will, forfeited his salvation right here and now, on this Earth, prior to any day of redemption. This position ignores 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14, Ephesians 4:30 and many more less directly relevant passages.

I am here putting forward what some might consider a modified version of the Arminian position. The logical basis for the Arminian doctrines surrounding this issue render that characterization inaccurate but, on the surface, making such an association is understandable. I am, in effect, saying that someone can walk away from their salvation if they so choose to do so, but not during this life. During this life a person can turn their back of God and learn to hate Him but God's seal of the Holy Spirit CANNOT be broken and once a person becomes Christ's, then God Himself guarantees that they will be present on the day of redemption - period. Any choice one makes to reject God that would end in their not spending eternity in Heaven would therefore have to come after their being delivered into the immediate, face to face, presence of God Himself. Will such decisions be common. I VERY MUCH doubt it. But "unlikely" is not synonymous with "impossible" and "rare" does not mean "non-existent".
 

Right Divider

Body part
Now which of us is being dishonest, RD?

The Day of Redemption is the day we are discussing. I'm pretty sure you knew that already.
And YET, you've tried to change it to a "day of decision".

Please show the scripture that describes that.
Then don't refute anything. Just respond to the following....
Not until you show me the scripture for the "day of decision".
Lastly, to reiterate, my position here is based on the biblical fact that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption", that this seal cannot be broken apart from God forfeiting His earnest payment, which is Himself, and on the fact that relationship, love, righteousness and all things moral are volitional by their very nature and cannot be coerced or otherwise forced, which is a concept that is ubiquitous throughout very nearly all of Christian philosophy, most especially the scripture. In short, this is not conjecture or mere speculation but a rational line of reasoning based on clearly taught biblical precepts that are not in dispute.
Your theory is based on a false premise that everyone needs to "agree again" to enter heaven or Christ will cut off an arm or a finger, etc. etc.

Eph 5:30 (AKJV/PCE)​
(5:30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.​
Christ will NOT be dismembering Himself.

Nobody is forced into heaven.

Your theory argues against many passages in the Bible.

Eph 2:5-9 (AKJV/PCE)​
(2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (2:6) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: (2:7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

That scripture has no meaning if we can be kicked out of the "heavenly places" later.

I understand that you cannot be moved. I'm done with this topic.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Yes, I brought that up already.

@Clete seems to believe that there is some sort of "day of decision". I've never heard of it and cannot find it in scripture.
Once again, I am both discourage and encouraged by the fact that, in order to reject my doctrine, people are forced to mischaracterize it and put words in my mouth that would never otherwise be there.

Discouraged especially because those who do it seem to be the ones quickest to accuse me of dishonesty and because it's such a waste of time.
Encouraged because all their arguments never touch my actual doctrine.

You know, its just as easy to say that you simply disagree and leave it at that. You've known me for decades and know that I am not flippant or careless about the doctrines I hold. The fact that you are here trying to act like I'm some sort of moron or that I'm just making stuff up as I go is silly, counter productive and damaging to your own reputation, while doing nothing at all to refute a single syllable of what I've actually put forward in this thread.
 
Last edited:

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
And YET, you've tried to change it to a "day of decision".

Please show the scripture that describes that.

Not until you show me the scripture for the "day of decision".

Your theory is based on a false premise that everyone needs to "agree again" to enter heaven or Christ will cut off an arm or a finger, etc. etc.

Eph 5:30 (AKJV/PCE)​
(5:30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.​
Christ will NOT be dismembering Himself.

Nobody is forced into heaven.

Your theory argues against many passages in the Bible.

Eph 2:5-9 (AKJV/PCE)​
(2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (2:6) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: (2:7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

That scripture has no meaning if we can be kicked out of the "heavenly places" later.

I understand that you cannot be moved. I'm done with this topic.
Repeating you position doesn't count as an argument. Ignoring my argument doesn't count as a response.

Until you respond with some sort of substance, I'll assume you have nothing of substance to respond with.

The fact is that I can be moved but not by obfuscation and mischaracterizations. If you address MY position with something substantive then great, otherwise, you're wasting your time arguing against a position no one holds.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Repeating you position doesn't count as an argument. Ignoring my argument doesn't count as a response.

Until you respond with some sort of substance, I'll assume you have nothing of substance to respond with.

The fact is that I can be moved but not by obfuscation and mischaracterizations. If you address MY position with something substantive then great, otherwise, you're wasting your time arguing against a position no one holds.
I guess that I still do not understand your doctrine regarding this. And you know that I'm not dumb either. So please spell it out with bullet points for me. Please start a new thread and I'll try my best to follow what you say.

P.S. Is this doctrine described anywhere in The Plot?
 
Last edited:

way 2 go

Well-known member
Neither passage refers to a person who is severely backslidden. As such your post is unresponsive to the question at hand.

We are not here talking about the average Christian, and even less about people who we might consider to be strong in the faith. Their reaction to meeting God is obvious and not even in dispute.

both say the same thing , no judgement day choice after death


determined before judgement day
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

determined before judgement day
(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
both say the same thing , no judgement day choice after death
Neither say that. You are reading things into the text.

For those who are not severely backslidden, there'd be no choice to make.

determined before judgement day
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
100% true - even for the severely backslidden, at least for some period of time.

determined before judgement day
(Luke 16:22-23) [22] And it came to pass for the poor man to die and be carried by the agents to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. [23] And having lifted up his eyes in Hades, being in torments, he sees Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his bosom.
This doesn't apply at all because no one in this parable was a member of the Body of Christ, neither was sealed by the Holy Spirit and both were very definitely capable of losing their salvation and so had either of them become "severely backslidden" they would have gone to Hell anyway. Thus, this passage doesn't apply even a little bit to this discussion.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I guess that I still do not understand your doctrine regarding this. And you know that I'm not dumb either. So please spell it out with bullet points for me. Please start a new thread and I'll try my best to follow what you say.
Very well.

P.S. Is this doctrine described anywhere in The Plot?
I don't recall. I don't think so.
I wish I had the pdf version of the book so I could do a search. Maybe someone reading this could do that for me.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I guess that I still do not understand your doctrine regarding this. And you know that I'm not dumb either. So please spell it out with bullet points for me. Please start a new thread and I'll try my best to follow what you say.

P.S. Is this doctrine described anywhere in The Plot?
 
Top