Is Israel the West?

[Idolater]

Some pertinent threads

Support Israel?

Right Divider sent me this link (thank you): https://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/conflict-in-israel-and-gods-blessing "This imbalanced response by America’s churches is largely due to a failure to rightly divide the word of God. Israel is mentioned over 2,600 times in the Bible, and it is...

theologyonline.com

Hamas or Israel?

It's been a world-wide divisive subject and I haven't seen much talk about it here at TOL. Protests and riots have broken out over it. So I'll say right up front that if Hamas and Israel go to war I will be cheering for Israel to dislodge Hamas as quickly as they can.

theologyonline.com

Israel (the modern country)

In the news this morning 😥 https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-latest-hamas-fighters-on-the-ground-after-5-000-rockets-fired-jerusalem-attacks-gaza-strip-targets-and-calls-up-reserves-12978800

theologyonline.com

Israel is the West according to American foreign policy, which is why we're warring with Iran rn. But almost none of our allies are helping, which means Israel is NOT the West to them. So which is right? America? or basically Europe? Are we leading? or is Europe leading, and Americans are just naive country bumpkins?

I actually think it's a question worth asking, because is Israel rn or in the future going to be, a true Western civilization and society? or is it going to be like India and Muslim countries, where there is no separation between the religious and the secular (a separation which only developed outta the Latin Western Church)? This is a defining feature of the modern Christian West.

India is Hindu, and Israel would be a Jewish state, not ethnically, but religiously, if it's not the West. But if Israel defends a separation between the secular and the religious, then I think it counts as Western, and our engagement with them against Iran is justified.

 

[Idolater]

Because they're thinking about, "Is Israel the West?" If not—then what are we doing? But if so? Then as Congressman Crenshaw said, this war with Iran was inevitable. Iran's most definitely NOT the West, and it's been clamoring for war with Israel for decades, licking its chops. It was bound to come to war at some point, and President Trump decided, better to take care of the festering problem now.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Israel is the West according to American foreign policy, which is why we're warring with Iran rn. But almost none of our allies are helping, which means Israel is NOT the West to them. So which is right? America? or basically Europe? Are we leading? or is Europe leading, and Americans are just naive country bumpkins?

Politics isn't real. That being said, Europe's take on foreign policy will never align 1 to 1 with American foreign policy, because America is in no danger of a ground invasion and it never has been. Germany is running the show in the EU, and it's only about a 12 hour drive from Berlin to the front line in Ukraine. I think most Americans do not realize that. Yet it is the Europeans who are the "naive country bumpkins" these days. Most of them couldn't even tell you what is going on in their own country. The men spend their breaktimes at work, mostly talking about other peoples hair.

I actually think it's a question worth asking, because is Israel rn or in the future going to be, a true Western civilization and society? or is it going to be like India and Muslim countries, where there is no separation between the religious and the secular (a separation which only developed outta the Latin Western Church)? This is a defining feature of the modern Christian West.

You can forget about the "modern Christian West". The modern Christian West has failed. While Christians in Iran were fighting in the streets, Americans were busy trying to figure out if they should cut the genitals off of their own male children and turn them in to girls. We dropped the ball, but it's not too late for us to help the Christians in the East pick it up and run with it. And don't forget about Africa.

 

[Idolater]

Israel and the Christian West:

Polygamy is outlawed.
Rape is outlawed.
Murder is outlawed.
Slavery is outlawed.
Incest is outlawed.
There is a secular domain separate from any spiritual domain.
Pedophilia is outlawed.
Autocracy is outlawed.
Totalitarianism is outlawed.

Europe should be treating Israel like it's part of the Christian West because Israel is part of the Christian West. This list is not exhaustive. In fact I invite anyone to come and post other overlaps between the Christian West and Israel, which doesn't overlap with Islamism and whatever's going to happen in India as it continues the slow moving disaster of its decolonization back into the dark ages.

 

[Clete]

Israel and the Christian West:

Polygamy is outlawed.
Rape is outlawed.
Murder is outlawed.
Slavery is outlawed.
Incest is outlawed.
There is a secular domain separate from any spiritual domain.
Pedophilia is outlawed.
Autocracy is outlawed.
Totalitarianism is outlawed.

Europe should be treating Israel like it's part of the Christian West because Israel is part of the Christian West. This list is not exhaustive. In fact I invite anyone to come and post other overlaps between the Christian West and Israel, which doesn't overlap with Islamism and whatever's going to happen in India as it continues the slow moving disaster of its decolonization back into the dark ages.

This feels to me like a rather weird, forced and artificial distinction. Israel is not our ally because they are "western" but because their geopolitical interests align with our own. The sociopolitical similarities you've listed have to do with a shared history and worldview (a biblical worldview). This happens to coincide with a "Western" disposition but the point is that the "western" distinction came long after the biblical one. The degree to which nation states ally with one another isn't entirely disassociated with common geographical location (e.g. "the west) but it isn't even close to the deciding factor as WWI and WWII prove decisively. The major deciding factor, is worldview. The degree to which a society is based on a biblical worldview, is the degree to which it is likely to ally itself with other societies with similar worldview, and vise versa.

Incidentally, the most important distinction between the worldview of "the east" and "the west" has to do with individualism vs. communalism. In eastern societies one's family, race, tribe, religious sect and/or nationality define the individual. Whereas in western societies, the individual is the fundamental morally accountable unit, with rights and responsibilities that exist apart from any group identity. This distinction touches EVERYTHING else, which is why the left relentlessly attacks on that front. Everything they think or see or feel is interpreted through the filter of the collective. "The collective" can be almost anything, by the way. It's "Mother Russia" in Soviet Russia, or "das Volk" under Hitler's Germany or simply Islam in places like Iran.

This is why the left doesn't typically attack religion head on because once the individual is subordinated to the collective, it doesn't matter what defines that collective whether it be religion, race, class, nation, ideology or whatever. Once the individual is subordinated, the system becomes interchangeable. Change the banner, keep the structure. Change the name, keep the logic. Change the ideology, keep the outcome.

Thus, the reason Israel is hated by the rest of "the east" isn't because it's "western" but because it isn't Islamic. It isn't part of their collective and can never be so because their particular collective has as part of its defining characteristics, the required destruction of Israel and all that ally with her.

 

[Idolater]

Israel and the Christian West:

[Polygamy is outlawed. Rape is outlawed. Murder is outlawed. Slavery is outlawed. Incest is outlawed. There is a secular domain separate from any spiritual domain. Pedophilia is outlawed. Autocracy is outlawed. Totalitarianism is outlawed.]

Europe should be treating Israel like it's part of the Christian West because Israel is part of the Christian West.

Israel are ... Jewish Christians iow. I weighed putting the term in quotes, but I don't think that would clarify. They're Jewish people, in ethnicity, in religion/theology. But [they're] Christian in their values.

They're dormant Christians, to be sure, in that they don't believe in Christ, and don't go to Church, and many also don't really value all of Christian chastity (beyond the pertinent laws listed above). But, they do believe other distinctively and exclusively Christian values (the above being a limited list of these), and that's all we need for enduring World peace, and to be their strong allies.

They want to reserve their national sovereignty rather than surrender it like we Americans all have (our home states are not sovereign under our Constitution), which is what Canada, Japan, Australia, all of Europe, etc., all prefer to do, to the American Constitution. That can work, as long as those Christian values are there, and in Israel Christian values are there.

This list is not exhaustive. In fact I invite anyone to come and post other overlaps between the Christian West and Israel, which doesn't overlap with Islamism and whatever's going to happen in [India,] as it continues the slow moving disaster of its decolonization back into the dark ages.

Could India and Islamism also acquire and hold these values, like Japan and Taiwan have, without first converting to Christ? Apparently there are verifiable Western (Christian) Muslims who hold Christian (Western) values. Could this phenomenon spread?

 

[Right Divider]

Israel are ... Jewish Christians iow.

Where did you get that idea?

They're Jewish people, in ethnicity, in religion/theology. But their Christian in their values.

Where did you get that idea?