Theology Club: Is God's Grace Irresistible?
- Thread starter Saved.One.by.Grace
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beloved57
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js
All men of Jn 12:32 are saved, its all His Seed. Jn 12:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
It bringeth forth much fruit pertains to the all men being drawn to Christ as a result of His dying, and that demonstrates irresistible grace !
So that verse condemns your wickedness !
All men of Jn 12:32 are saved, its all His Seed. Jn 12:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
It bringeth forth much fruit pertains to the all men being drawn to Christ as a result of His dying, and that demonstrates irresistible grace !
So that verse condemns your wickedness !
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The words "all men" at John 12:32 means just that and not only some men!
Do you never tire of perverting what is said in the Bible?
beloved57
Well-known member
It does mean all men, all of some men ! Does it say all men without exception ? Yes or No ?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It says "all men."
Not some men but instead "all men."
But what do you care? You prove over and over that what the Bible reveals means nothing to you.
Are all men drawn to the cross for salvation? or are some men drawn for judgement?
beloved57
Well-known member
It says all men but it does not mean all men without exception ! The word all pas means:
I.
individually
A.
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
II.
collectively
A.
some of all types
So there is proof that all does mean some !
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
What a convoluted thought process you have.
“No man can come unto me except the Father who hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44); “no man can come unto me, except it were given to him of the Father” (John 6:65).
This is what the scriptures say. You can deny the words of Jesus at your own peril. They say what they say and I take it literally.
Parsing is your specialty, not mine. You avoid the inconvenient truth of scripture to hang on to your self-invented theology, whatever that may be.
beloved57
Well-known member
Does John 12:32 say anything about God's Grace being resisted in Salvation ?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are unable to understand simple arguments. John 12:32 proves that being drawn to the Lord Jesus does not speak of irresistible grace.
On the other hand, what about God's grace spoken of here?:
" But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).
If grace is irresistible then what about the grace of the Lord Jesus tasting death for every man?
If that grace is irresistible then all men would be saved since the Lord Jesus tasted death for every man.
beloved57
Well-known member
does Jn 12:32 say anything about Grace being resisted ? Yes or No ?
In fact it is saying Grace is being irresistable, Look at what it says 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now " will draw " is in the indicative mood which means:
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time.
Now are you calling Christ a liar and say some will not be drawn unto Him ?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, I am saying that you cannot understand simple arguments about what is said in the Bible because you remain a natural man.
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes you are saying it, unless you bow to the Truth that Jesus will draw all men to Him that He was Lifted up in behalf of. Where does it say anything about His drawing being resisted ?
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
So you're saying God's drawing people to Him can be overcome. In effect, you're saying God is not sovereign, correct? So who is sovereign over God?
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
Reading this over in context, it sounds prophetic.
<DIR>John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
John 12:31"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." [NASB]
</DIR>As far as I know, Satan still operates freely over then land and its people. All men have not yet been drawn to the cross, nor have all men been drawn to judgment.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, I am saying that just because someone is drawn to the Lord Jesus does not mean that he will end up saved.
It is impossible for you to follow simple arguments about what is said in the Bible because you remain a natural man.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I am saying that all men are drawn to Christ but it is obvious that this drawing does not always lead to salvation or else all men would be saved:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn.12:32).
beloved57
Well-known member
That's what you are saying, where does it say anything about just because they are drawn to Christ that doesn't mean they Shall be saved !
Those that Christ died for are reconciled to God by His death while they're enemies Rom 5:10 and it is promised that they Shall be saved by His life ! Now the lifting up in Jn 12:32 is the equivalent to His death in Rom 5:10 so that proves you are a dishonest deciever !
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2COR12:9
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I believe His grace can be irresistible, though He chose in His sovereignty to create a universe in which humans would be imbued with the ability to choose; and in doing so His grace is not irresistible, for if it were, there would be no contrary option available, rendering any repentance or faith or love placed in, and directed towards Him, as inauthentic because it was never rendered by a personal decision from the place of choosing, for where there are no alternatives there is no choice, and with no choice than all faith and repentance from an individual is ineffectual because the individual is incapable of enacting the trust or the changing of their mind.
If grace is irresistible, your faith is not yours, you never repented, and your love is disingenuous. If these are the type of creatures God wanted, He never would have wasted His time making this universe, within it a garden, and in the center a tree, allowing a choice for rebellion. Christ is not an afterthought, it's not a response to a disobedient act of humankind, it was built into the foundation by which the real choice would be enacted by those creatures for who would become His children. God set the stage so we can come to Him from the ground up, unlike His angelic beings, we have the ability to taste the degradation and some to want for an alternative, one that will be free from all such corruptions for an eternity.
If grace is irresistible, your faith is not yours, you never repented, and your love is disingenuous. If these are the type of creatures God wanted, He never would have wasted His time making this universe, within it a garden, and in the center a tree, allowing a choice for rebellion. Christ is not an afterthought, it's not a response to a disobedient act of humankind, it was built into the foundation by which the real choice would be enacted by those creatures for who would become His children. God set the stage so we can come to Him from the ground up, unlike His angelic beings, we have the ability to taste the degradation and some to want for an alternative, one that will be free from all such corruptions for an eternity.
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