The Greek is specific , some are drawn to Christ, some aren't.
The ones that are have a desire to know Him better.
Theres no question that everyone on this site has been drawn by the Father , other wise they wouldn't want to be here.
The problem is they are stuck in that drawing process ,. because they have tripped over the stumbling block of the mistranslation of the word that describes how we start the relationship with Christ.
Hi and you say that some will DRAWN and some will not be DRAWN ??
The Greek word DRAW / HELKO is in the SUBJUCTIVE MOOD and could explain your position of TO DRAW and NOT to DRAW !!
The Greek to DRAW / HEIKO means to draw , to drag off , lead , impel , so which is it ??
The Greek word for UP / AINISTEMI is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and speaks to the last day . so what does that mean ??
dan p
The fact that God the Father must pick , choose , "draw' , certain people to Christ , while not picking , not choosing ,not drawing some people tells us that there are some He just doesn't want .
The Greek is specific , some are drawn to Christ, some aren't.
The ones that are have a desire to know Him better.
Theres no question that everyone on this site has been drawn by the Father , other wise they wouldn't want to be here.
The problem is they are stuck in that drawing process ,. because they have tripped over the stumbling block of the mistranslation of the word that describes how we start the relationship with Christ.
Hi and does that mean that you are a CALVINIST , God chooses who will be saved ??
Especially , since God does not want ANY TO PERISH and who so ever may come ??
dan p
Hi and does that mean that you are a CALVINIST , God chooses who will be saved ??
Especially , since God does not want ANY TO PERISH and who so ever may come ??
dan p
"The Greek" is only one resource of many that one can rely on towards attempting to properly arrive at the Spirit's intended sense or meaning through HOW He used those Words He used, when where, why, as to what, in light of what, as to whom, etc.
The Scripture is language. And like any language, it follows various rules of grammar towards communicating its intended sense through said language.
And guess what else?
All that is not the realm of just one or two words looked up "in the Greek."
Rather, all that is about a set of doctrines which are each themselves comprised of various aspects of their whole.
And this "drawing" that you are going on about, is no exception.
It requires more than looking up a word or two, or even an entire passage "in the Greek," or what have you.
It requires a DOCTRINAL study.
Every mis-fire promoted on here; including that of the so called (more like know it all) "MADs" results from a failure in this...
To the Doctrine of the Lord's "drawing" then.
Here then, is the beginnings of such a DOCTRINAL study...
John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
Thus, they were drawn to Him THROUGH those works The Father worked THROUGH The SON.
Unfortunately, they ended up allowing themselves to be DRAWN by said miracles for the wrong reason.
6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Hunh?
Nevertheless, what saith The Spirit through His Word as to His...intended meaning?
And HOW does He clarify what He meant through His Words?
6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Answer?
As just now illustrated there - by saying the same thing in a DIFFERENT way.
He is using Basic Rules of Grammar for the Communicating of Intended Meaning through said rules.
Not much "Greek" needed, as the translators did likewise.
All that is HOW the following was brought about - by the Spirit of The Father through those miraculous works in...His Glorious Son...
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Still not "sold"?
Let's study out this Doctrine on said Drawing through a bit more application of this Doctrine of....
Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
Note this same issue of said Drawing and how exactly it worked back then...
Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. 7:13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not. 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
Result of that work of The Father through His Son?
7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. 7:17 And this rumour of him went forth throughout all Judaea, and throughout all the region round about.
Here; have some more of this truth...
7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Good question. Let's see what His reply was...
7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Your turn now.
To put away "the Greek" for a while, and just get in The BOOK and there study through His Word, HOW TO study various "things of God" through HOW He used Words, to communicate His...intended sense...
Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
Nehemiah 8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
These things are that simple to study out.
Rom. 5:8.
Hi and will not answer ??
dan p
I hope the title of this thread doesn't cause you to think i'm anti Christian. I've been seeking to know Christ better for over 30 years with every part of my being . During these 30 years i've not only been having what i call the born again relationship with Christ , i've also have had what could be the best teacher of Scripture in the last 400 years.
It started in 1987 when i did something someone told me to do to try and help me get out of a tough time in my life. I did what this person suggested and things began to happen. Feeling the presence of Christ , the desire to know Him always increasing , wanting to give to others in need instead of serving myself. The list goes on and on , getting into Scriptural evidence that Christ is truely indwelling my being.
This experience has of course driven me to share this truth with others , much like a watchman would. This is why i've asked if Christianity is dead .
We could talk about a million ways one could have that real true connection with Christ , but i think most of us would agree it boils down to "Faith."
In and around the 1500's the Greek texts were being translated into the English language. The Greek language has a noun "pistis" and is where we get the english word "Faith". Faith is a person , place or thing . Pistis is used around 250 times in the NT.
The Greek texts also have a verb "pisteuo" , also used around 250 times . A problem arose for the translators when the English language had no word to translate the Greek verb for Faith . The words the English language should have had are faithe , faither , and faithing. Being a verb this Greek word pisteuo is and act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense.
What is the specific act , based upon what specific belief , and sustained by what kind of confidense , that could start a one on one relationship with Christ by receiving His Spirit ?
We find the answer in the Vines Greek dictionary and reads , "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender."
Now with this ground work laid , what really happened when the translators did not have a word in the English to correctly communicate "pisteuo" ?
In retrospect , the translators would have been better off to cease translating the Greek texts into english , because the damage their decision would create causes not only the "wide path" but could also destroy the only way to have a one on one relationship with Christ.
The translators chose to use the words believe , believer , and believing . Now if you go back and see the definition of what a verb is , these words only communicate that true "pisteuo" is part of a verb. It doesn't communicate what the specific act of faithing is to start , maintain , and complete a relationship with Christ here on earth.
As the result of this "mistranslation" most of the church world understands that the true path to receiving the Spirit of Christ is by believing in Gods Word which couldn't be farther from the truth. True pisteuo is a continual surrendering of our lives to Christ , "and" making all the little a big daily decisions supporting that surrender. It's not our life any more , but His .
What we have in todays church world is a pisteuo that doesn't require a continual surrendering of our lives to Him. So in accually one could have a relationship with Christ and still keep their own life serving themselves . This is the wide path and will never result in recieving the Spirit of Christ.
As Rom 8:9 tells us , if we don't have the Spirit of Christ in us , and we in Him , Christ is none of ours . If Christ is none of ours , His Word can't be ours either. That means that anyone who has not been continually surrendering their lives to Christ can never recieve His Spirit , making Christ and His Word and the promises there-in none of theirs.
Yet todays church world knows the Scriptures inside and out and it not theirs yet because of the above facts.
Is Christianity lost to time ?
The Words got to be yours Danoh , or what are we doing here?
I don't think i'm a Calinist. i don't waste time on those worldly terms.
The Words got to be yours Danoh , or what are we doing here?
Nope.
Isaiah 8:20
2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
And...
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Because Romans 5:8.
In my experience, and through my study of the Bible, I have always believed the word faith ought to be a verb as it always implies taking action on a belief. It's just like James said, Faith without works is dead.
Lol - make up your mind :chuckle:
Rom. 5:8.
I think your reply was aimed at where i asked you if you considered yourself a dispensationalist. I would never see you or anyone else as that , but it would give me some insight on your understandings.
So so you consider yourself a dispensationalist.
No. I do not consider myself "a Dispensationalist."
At the same time, that does not mean I avoid the obvious - that there are things throughout Scripture that differ from one another, as to people, places, things, each as to their respective seasons, and so forth.
Rom. 5:8.
Just to take stock of the disagreement between you and i .
It's not that i don't want to discuss Scripture with you.
You are totally invested in Gods Word and have an educated and studied understanding of it. But at the same time , i've brought to light facts that show many people who are educated and studied in Gods word haven't yet made the mandatory surrendering of their lives to God that would make Gods Word theirs to talk about.
Claiming Christ , his Word , and the promises there in are like hitting the lottery in the sense it is a narrow path and few find it. Thats why i'm insisting on talking about the things that precede Gods word . Thats why you , i , and others haven't got past the fact we don't have the Spirit of Christ when were born.
Next question ,
So lets say i'm born in the year 683. I'm being drawn to Christ by the Father , even though i don't know His name or anything about Him. What can i do to start a relationship with God or recieve His Spirit ?
As with everyone else on here (including myself) you are attempting to reason with others from within where you perceive things.
As I am fascinatingly ever finding, you will continue to find that said approach will only continue to run straight into the often brick wall that is another's long set in stone perception of one thing or another.
Doesn't always mean the one side is wrong and the other is not; but that is another level of abstraction altogether, anyway.
It is what it is, F.
Until any two parties come to a place wherein both are looking at a thing from basically more or less the same level of abstraction, round and round both...will continue to go.
Case in point, how often my ending of my posts with my citing of the passage Romans 5:8, is misconstrued by people one would think would be able to soundly perceive why my citing of that particular passage.
All sorts of people on here end up reading some other notion in that.
Nevertheless, Romans 5:8 towards you, Faither.
Thanks free , i understand your instincts to be right. It gets hard to comprehend even with the Spirit of Christ . Sometimes it takes years and years to understand what Gods been doing to us individually today. Part of that reason is in Gods framework of understanding , His truths are paradoxes to us .
Even though Faith and faithing or pistis and pisteuo are mandatory things we must do continually , it's not a work that can accomplish or achieve something , but at the same time (a paradox ) it is a work that can accomplish or achieve something.
Example : Pisteuo or faithing is Vines : " A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender."
It's two parts continual surrendering of our lives , and making all the daily decisions showing you truly are surrendering your life to Him. Faithing is a work , and faithing is work , but it could never achieve Salvation or replace Christs finished work on the cross. Pisteuo is what Christ requires to be one with Him. A half measure avails nothing.
If i were surrendering my life and making daily decisions supporting that , and expecting something in return , even salvation , it wouldn't be a genuine surrender but a business deal or vending machine kind of relationship.
Let me know what you think , and welcome to the group .
I agree with your overall thesis. And I agree if we are looking at our relationship with God as a business deal by which we get salvation we are in it for the wrong motives and all we do along those lines is worthless. Our relationship with God has to be based upon a love relationship. We surrender and allow Him to change us so that we can obey based upon our love for Him and what He stands for. It is all His grace.