Is Calvinism Wrong?

[MennoSota]

And, your interpretation of scripture is incorrect.

In some areas, you may be correct. For example, is Amillenialism incorrect? Maybe.
In the area regarding salvation by grace alone, apart from works, I am not wrong. I observe what God says in His word and I hold steadfastly to His word.
I do not claim to choose what is not mine to choose because God tells me that He alone chooses whom he wills.

 

[glorydaz]

Was the Holy Spirit in error, or is there a difference between James and Paul.
Do you see a difference? Look close. :sherlock:

James says justified by works, not by faith only.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

Paul says IF Abraham were justified by works, he could glory....but NOT before God. His reward for his work was but his DEBT. Not of Grace.

Worketh NOT but believeth is what justifies.

Romans 4:2-5 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

Have you come around to admitting that Israel was never justified by law, but always by faith?



There is no different "Gospel of Grace" Glory. The gospel has always been grace and has never been apart from grace.

​

Works of what?



If you answer "works of the law" or some similar answer then you have proved that my assessment was accurate: that you were claiming that Israel was justified by law. I think we both know what you meant before (or else you would have no argument) but if you wish to change your answer that is also acceptable.

Was Abraham justified by "the works of the law" or "the works of his faith?"

I see you're trying to redirect in order to avoid addressing my post. You'll never be able to progress if you keep failing to address what others say, instead of just turning away and asking questions of your own.

Did you read what James said? Did you read what Paul said in Romans 4?

What kind of works is James talking about? Why did he say they were necessary in order to be justified? Notice he says "not by faith only"?

Paul says the opposite, saying we are justified when we believe and "worketh not".

If you find it yourself, you won't have to ask me. :sherlock:

 

[glorydaz]

I actually do see a difference between your approach "Perseverance of the Saints" and Glory's approach "Once Saved Always Saved?" You said the warnings are to be taken seriously, she says that they only applied to Jews and are non-applicable to a Gentile.

There are no warnings from Paul about losing salvation.
There are only warnings to examine yourself whether you be in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?​

Christ is the Door, but He is certainly not a revolving door.

 

[glorydaz]

No time for editing this one. There will be typos! Sorry.

You'd better hope not. I might be able to twist your words, and then you'd be sorry.

The context makes is impossible to think that Paul is saying anything other than that the law was nailed to the cross.

Unless it was the condemnation of our sins that was nailed to the cross. Our transgressions. The list of charges that the law brought against us.

Further, youe argument cannot be valid anyway because...

Romans 4:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

No law written down. But you said the Law started in the garden of Eden, didn't you?

And Paul says explicitly...

@ Corinthians 3:4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Ministers...ministry of death. The law was simply a minister, as we are. The law could say the same, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves..."

I don't understand your point. I have not suggested that the Law is evil. I have not suggested that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was evil either. I am merely pointing out that they both of a ministry of death. Just as sin killed Adam "by that which was good" so are we so killed by that which is good.

Only because we were slaves to sin. Sin used the law, but that doesn't make the law guilty of killing anyone.

By the tree came the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen. 2:9)
By the law the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20) (Deuteronomy 1:39)

The tree minister death (Gen. 2:17)
The law, including the Ten Commandments has the same ministry of death (Romans 7:9) (2 Cor. 3:7)

Adam was cursed because he partook of the Tree. (Gen. 3:17)
Christ became a curse by hanging on a tree. (Gal. 3:13)

Etc., etc., etc...

It is undeniable. The parallels are simply too numerous to ignore.

Yep the parallels are numerous, but why blame the law? On the contrary, Paul says this...

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

Gotta go pick up my grandsons, Clete, I will respond to the rest when I get back.

 

[glorydaz]

Indeed! We agree on like 99.99% of everything! God bless you!

God bless you, too, Clete. You are truly a blessing here on TOL.

I'm afraid, though, that I cannot agree with the "curse of the law" being the law itself. Scripture doesn't say the Law is a curse, does it? It says the curse is something that comes as a result of the law. It's like saying condemnation of the law.

Well this is the 0.01% then because if the law isn't written on Christ's heart then it isn't written on mine. I do NOT need the law nor any manifestation of it. I need God and God alone - period. My righteousness has nothing at all to do with ANY law. My righteousness is imputed to me because of faith in Him Who is my righteousness and Who was righteous eons before there was any law written anywhere.

You don't think the Law was written on Christ's heart when He walked among us as a man? :think:


Right, our righteousness has nothing to do with any law. Righteousness was never intended to come from the law. The law is totally neutral. It is simply there to show men their sin, and their need for a Saviour. The need for that law is eternal, at least as long as there is sin in the world. I'm sure we agree that the law is still showing sinners their sin.

I do not live this life based on the flesh, which is all the law is about! The reason circumcision is used as a symbol of the law is because it is a physical cutting off of the flesh just as the law is a cutting off of fleshly desires. But we no longer need to cut off the flesh because we have been crucified in Christ and the life I know live in the flesh I do NOT live by the law by by faith in Him who gave Himself for me. To live my some law - any law -, whether it is written on stone or otherwise, is to resurrect your flesh and for the rotten, undead zombie of your flesh to attempt to accomplish that which only Christ can do. More than that, to attempt to live by some law is to reach and stretch for that which you already possess.

The law was never intended to be lived by.

Now, I'm just convinced that you agree with all of that. It is beginning to feel very much like this "disagreement" is a semantic one rather than one of substance. (Not that it's unimportant, words are powerful things.) I just cannot figure out how you are making adherence to the Ten Commandments fit with the idea that we are in Christ and all the identification truths that come with it.

I'm not talking about adherence to the law. So, yeah, it'a probably a misunderstanding of what the other is saying.

If Christ is living through us will we steal our neighbor's goods or desire his wife or murder him? No, of course not! But that's not because of the Ten Commandments, which had/has a ministry of death, it's because of Christ, Who is our life.

Resting in Him,
Clete

We won't steal, because our heart has been purified by faith...which means our conscience is fresh as a new born babe's. We don't have to guess about right and wrong, we know. And we know because of the Law.

 

[glorydaz]

And you are now Universalist?

Even most Universalists would admit that something is required before forgiveness is given... but it would take a pure Universalist to argue otherwise.

Must you jump to such outrageous conclusions?

Perhaps you think obey, repent, and be baptised is the same as believe in your heart.

The former is a work of man. The latter is not a work of man.

The former is the Kingdom Gospel, and the latter is the Gospel of Grace.

Neither are Universalism.

 

[glorydaz]

The New Testament emphasis is Christ in heaven at the right hand of God as our mediator and advocate. Christ is present in the Holy Spirit, but he is not doing another work in the life of the believer. It is not good theology to attribute to the Son that which is done by the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not confuse the work of the trinity, nor should we.

The Father remains in heaven.
Jesus comes into the world as the savior.
The Holy Spirit glorifies the work of the Son and works in the life of the believer.

Robert, there is One God. Where the Father is the Son and Spirit are there. Else how could Christ be in us? When we are in Christ, we are in the presence of the Triune God.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert, there is One God. Where the Father is the Son and Spirit are there. Else how could Christ be in us? When we are in Christ, we are in the presence of the Triune God.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

The body is dead because Jesus put it to death, Romans 6:3. The Spirit did not put the body to death, Jesus did. The Holy Spirit is only given to those that are "In Christ". This is why Paul said, "But the Spirit is life because of righteousness". The righteousness of Christ.

 

[Clete]

The New Testament emphasis is Christ in heaven at the right hand of God as our mediator and advocate. Christ is present in the Holy Spirit, but he is not doing another work in the life of the believer. It is not good theology to attribute to the Son that which is done by the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not confuse the work of the trinity, nor should we.

The Father remains in heaven.
Jesus comes into the world as the savior.
The Holy Spirit glorifies the work of the Son and works in the life of the believer.

Tell that to Paul...

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Of course, that is not to say that the Spirit isn't directly involved. God is One for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

You'd better hope not. I might be able to twist your words, and then you'd be sorry.

:shocked:

Unless it was the condemnation of our sins that was nailed to the cross. Our transgressions. The list of charges that the law brought against us.

Like I said, it doesn't say that. It just simply doesn't say that.

No law written down. But you said the Law started in the garden of Eden, didn't you?

Not exactly.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil produced the law and each have the same ministry of death and so it depends on just what you mean.

I'm always surprised at the complexities that these discussions bring up.

Just what do you think Paul meant by "I was alive once"?

And if the law he was talking about wasn't the one that was written down, the one that specifically said "You shall not covet", then what law was he talking about and how would that fit with what you think he meant by "I was alive once"?

Ministers...ministry of death. The law was simply a minister, as we are. The law could say the same, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves..." ?

I don't get it. Sorry. This made no sense to me.

Only because we were slaves to sin. Sin used the law, but that doesn't make the law guilty of killing anyone.

Except that Paul explicitly says that the letter (idiom for the law) kills but the Spirit gives life.

Yep the parallels are numerous, but why blame the law? On the contrary, Paul says this...

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

Blame the law? I don't understand what you mean.

And do you regularly ignore such numerous and obviously intentional parallels?

God bless you, too, Clete. You are truly a blessing here on TOL.

I'm afraid, though, that I cannot agree with the "curse of the law" being the law itself. Scripture doesn't say the Law is a curse, does it? It says the curse is something that comes as a result of the law. It's like saying condemnation of the law.

This is a distinction without a difference.

Again, "the letter kills..."

You don't think the Law was written on Christ's heart when He walked among us as a man? :think:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

I mean, did I mention, NO!

Jesus lived under the Mosaic Law and followed it precisely and perfectly and was the only person who ever did or could do so but He DID NOT accomplish that because God wrote the Law on Christ's heart. Christ was (is) God! He wasn't righteous because He followed the Law! Quite the reverse! It is the law that is defined by God's character, not the other way around.

Right, our righteousness has nothing to do with any law. Righteousness was never intended to come from the law. The law is totally neutral. It is simply there to show men their sin, and their need for a Saviour. The need for that law is eternal, at least as long as there is sin in the world. I'm sure we agree that the law is still showing sinners their sin.

This is another one where it depends on what you mean. I agree that God has written the moral aspects of the law on the hearts of mankind and that they are thus "without excuse" as Paul put it in Romans 1 but that doesn't have anything to do with us as believers. For even this aspect of the law was merely a tutor, to bring us to Christ (not very neutral in that regard, I'd say) but once we are Christ's we no longer need a tutor. When we were children, under a tutor, we spoke as a child, we understood as a child, we thought as a child; but when we became a Man (i.e. became identified in the Son of Man), we put away childish things.

The law was never intended to be lived by.

What?

I'm not talking about adherence to the law. So, yeah, it's probably a misunderstanding of what the other is saying.

Maybe this is a good time for me to be clear about what I am NOT saying.

I am not saying that it's okay to sin. I am not saying that we're allowed to steal, or murder, or commit adultery or to disregard time spent with God or dishonor are parents or defraud people or whatever other immoral thing that you can think of. I am also NOT saying that such things aren't understood intuitively by all human beings (i.e. that such things are 'written on their hearts').

What I'm telling you is that if you are living by the law or any part of it then you are a debtor to keep the whole thing and "Christ will profit you nothing" (in your daily walk). I don't care whether it's a law written on stone or on flesh - you cannot live by it and it will, therefore, condemn you. You want to focus on that which is written in (on) tablets of flesh, fine. That law will convict you! Therefore, crucify your flesh and let Christ live His life through you by faith - not the law - not the flesh (same thing).

You do not need the Ten Commandments! You need God - period!

We won't steal, because our heart has been purified by faith...which means our conscience is fresh as a new born babe's. We don't have to guess about right and wrong, we know. And we know because of the Law.

NO! Oh my goodness no!

We know because we are in Christ!

Do we know that God is righteous because of the law? Certainly not! God gave the law! God is not subject to nor judged by any law. He is the Judge and you are righteous because He has declared you to be so. It's because God says so, not because the law says so. Even if the law agrees, your statement tacitly (i.e. unwittingly - unintentionally) turns the whole thing on its head and places God under the law.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[john w]

Tell that to Paul...

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Of course, that is not to say that the Spirit isn't directly involved. God is One for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col. 2:9).

Resting in Him,
Clete

Ephesians 3:17 KJV
that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

2 Corinthians 13:3-55 KJV 3 since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you...........Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Romans 8:10 KJV
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 1:15-16 KJV
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Galatians 4:19 KJV
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Colossians 1:27 KJV
to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.




Pate just makes things up, on the fly...

 

[glorydaz]

Like I said, it doesn't say that. It just simply doesn't say that.

It doesn't say the "law", either.

Col. 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​

I'm always surprised at the complexities that these discussions bring up.

Just what do you think Paul meant by "I was alive once"?

And if the law he was talking about wasn't the one that was written down, the one that specifically said "You shall not covet", then what law was he talking about and how would that fit with what you think he meant by "I was alive once"?

Well, from the context, I see the word "covet". I believe he was talking about the Ten Commandments.


When he says he was alive once, he means he was living his life, but had not yet come under conviction by the law. In other words, he was a pharisee obeying the letter of the law, but had not yet come to the realization that "covet" includes his thoughts (not just his actions). When he did realize that, he died (was found guilty by the law), and sin slayed him. He was condemned by the law, but the law didn't slay him. It only declared him Guilty.
Romans 7:11KJV

I don't get it. Sorry. This made no sense to me.


Except that Paul explicitly says that the letter (idiom for the law) kills but the Spirit gives life.


Blame the law? I don't understand what you mean.

Ah, and maybe this is our problem. (Or at least one of them). The "letter" only refers to the outward observances of the law. There is always more to the law than that, and the tenth makes that clear.

And do you regularly ignore such numerous and obviously intentional parallels?

I didn't think so.

This is a distinction without a difference.

Again, "the letter kills..."

That's because the law was never intended to be followed apart from the Spirit in us. It would have been only an outward observance...worth nothing.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

I mean, did I mention, NO!

I'm sorry, Clete, but you are kinda cute when you get frustrated. I remember telling you once that I would never be able to be as rational as you are. Nor could I explain things the way you do. So please forgive me for not being very clear on certain things.

Jesus lived under the Mosaic Law and followed it precisely and perfectly and was the only person who ever did or could do so but He DID NOT accomplish that because God wrote the Law on Christ's heart.

So how was it that he was the only human being that "could" do so?

Wouldn't Jesus have a conscience like all men do? As a man, He was filled with the Holy Spirit, and therefore able to accomplish all righteousness.

Christ was (is) God! He wasn't righteous because He followed the Law! Quite the reverse! It is the law that is defined by God's character, not the other way around.

I agree. No man is righteous because he follows the law. As you said, the law is defined by the very character of God. Why, oh why, would God ever nail it to the cross. Rather....the law was magnified. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it. Matt. 5:17-18

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.​

This is another one where it depends on what you mean. I agree that God has written the moral aspects of the law on the hearts of mankind and that they are thus "without excuse" as Paul put it in Romans 1 but that doesn't have anything to do with us as believers. For even this aspect of the law was merely a tutor, to bring us to Christ (not very neutral in that regard, I'd say) but once we are Christ's we no longer need a tutor. When we were children, under a tutor, we spoke as a child, we understood as a child, we thought as a child; but when we became a Man (i.e. became identified in the Son of Man), we put away childish things.

Yep, all true.

Maybe this is a good time for me to be clear about what I am NOT saying.

I am not saying that it's okay to sin. I am not saying that we're allowed to steal, or murder, or commit adultery or to disregard time spent with God or dishonor are parents or defraud people or whatever other immoral thing that you can think of. I am also NOT saying that such things aren't understood intuitively by all human beings (i.e. that such things are 'written on their hearts').

What I'm telling you is that if you are living by the law or any part of it then you are a debtor to keep the whole thing and "Christ will profit you nothing" (in your daily walk). I don't care whether it's a law written on stone or on flesh - you cannot live by it and it will, therefore, condemn you. You want to focus on that which is written in (on) tablets of flesh, fine. That law will convict you! Therefore, crucify your flesh and let Christ live His life through you by faith - not the law - not the flesh (same thing).

You do not need the Ten Commandments! You need God - period!

It won't condemn me, because I have been freed from the condemnation of the law. I am no longer under the law's condemnation, but I delight in the law, itself.

NO! Oh my goodness no!

We know because we are in Christ!

Do we know that God is righteous because of the law? Certainly not! God gave the law! God is not subject to nor judged by any law. He is the Judge and you are righteous because He has declared you to be so. It's because God says so, not because the law says so. Even if the law agrees, your statement tacitly (i.e. unwittingly - unintentionally) turns the whole thing on its head and places God under the law.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm not sure what I said to make you think God is under His own Law. What God says in His Law, He wrote down for a reason. Not so we would be changed by the law, but that we would realize that we must turn to God for His mercy and Grace....for justification (through faith), for sanctification (through the word), and for the gift of LIFE.

 

[Clete]

Ephesians 3:17 KJV
that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

2 Corinthians 13:3-55 KJV 3 since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you...........Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Romans 8:10 KJV
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Galatians 1:15-16 KJV
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Galatians 4:19 KJV
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Colossians 1:27 KJV
to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.




Pate just makes things up, on the fly...

It felt like he was trying to change the topic to some sort of debate about the Trinity. :idunno:

 

[Clete]

It doesn't say the "law", either.

Col. 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;​

Well, from the context, I see the word "covet". I believe he was talking about the Ten Commandments.


When he says he was alive once, he means he was living his life, but had not yet come under conviction by the law. In other words, he was a pharisee obeying the letter of the law, but had not yet come to the realization that "covet" includes his thoughts (not just his actions). When he did realize that, he died (was found guilty by the law), and sin slayed him. He was condemned by the law, but the law didn't slay him. It only declared him Guilty.
Romans 7:11KJV



Ah, and maybe this is our problem. (Or at least one of them). The "letter" only refers to the outward observances of the law. There is always more to the law than that, and the tenth makes that clear.



I didn't think so.




That's because the law was never intended to be followed apart from the Spirit in us. It would have been only an outward observance...worth nothing.




I'm sorry, Clete, but you are kinda cute when you get frustrated. I remember telling you once that I would never be able to be as rational as you are. Nor could I explain things the way you do. So please forgive me for not being very clear on certain things.



So how was it that he was the only human being that "could" do so?

Wouldn't Jesus have a conscience like all men do? As a man, He was filled with the Holy Spirit, and therefore able to accomplish all righteousness.




I agree. No man is righteous because he follows the law. As you said, the law is defined by the very character of God. Why, oh why, would God ever nail it to the cross. Rather....the law was magnified. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it. Matt. 5:17-18

Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.​

Yep, all true.



It won't condemn me, because I have been freed from the condemnation of the law. I am no longer under the law's condemnation, but I delight in the law, itself.




I'm not sure what I said to make you think God is under His own Law. What God says in His Law, He wrote down for a reason. Not so we would be changed by the law, but that we would realize that we must turn to God for His mercy and Grace....for justification (through faith), for sanctification (through the word), and for the gift of LIFE.

Glorydaz,

I'm not sure what else to say that I haven't already said. The further we go, the more I'm convinced that the disagreement here is likely to be more semantics than substance but whether that's true or not, I think it might be wise to let things sit where they are and simply agree to disagree on this particular point. I am fully persuaded that my doctrine is correct on the point concerning the fact that the law no longer has any role to play in the life of the believer and that it's entire soteriological ministry has exclusively to do with convicting unbelievers of their sin and need of a savior. (There is a role that the law has in criminal justice but that's quite a different topic than soteriology.) The fact that I've failed to convince you is disapointing but not unexpected. I'll consider it a seed planted.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz,

I'm not sure what else to say that I haven't already said. The further we go, the more I'm convinced that the disagreement here is likely to be more semantics than substance but whether that's true or not, I think it might be wise to let things sit where they are and simply agree to disagree on this particular point. I am fully persuaded that my doctrine is correct on the point concerning the fact that the law no longer has any role to play in the life of the believer and that it's entire soteriological ministry has exclusively to do with convicting unbelievers of their sin and need of a savior. (There is a role that the law has in criminal justice but that's quite a different topic than soteriology.) The fact that I've failed to convince you is disapointing but not unexpected. I'll consider it a seed planted.

Resting in Him,
Clete

That fact, in the yellow above, is what I've been saying all along. You don't need to convince me of the law's purpose. I thought I'd said over and over that the law was not given to make men righteous, to justify men or to give man life. Paul makes that clear.

I just don't believe the law was nailed to the cross. But, I agree. This particular conversation isn't getting us anywhere. I'll take the blame for that. It won't be the first time I've failed to make myself clear.

 

[Clete]

That fact, in the yellow above, is what I've been saying all along. You don't need to convince me of the law's purpose. I thought I'd said over and over that the law was not given to make men righteous, to justify men or to give man life. Paul makes that clear.

I just don't believe the law was nailed to the cross. But, I agree. This particular conversation isn't getting us anywhere. I'll take the blame for that. It won't be the first time I've failed to make myself clear.

Communication is a two way street. Its just as likely that my own stubbornness is preventing me from understanding your position here. Even this last post of yours reads to my mind as contradictory to what I've thought you've been saying. It really feels like we agree WAY more than we disagree, even on this particular issue.

 

[glorydaz]

Communication is a two way street. Its just as likely that my own stubbornness is preventing me from understanding your position here. Even this last post of yours reads to my mind as contradictory to what I've thought you've been saying. It really feels like we agree WAY more than we disagree, even on this particular issue.

I know we agree more than we disagree. I've read your posts for quite some time. Bless you, Clete. I'm so glad you're posting here on TOL.

 

[Clete]

I know we agree more than we disagree. I've read your posts for quite some time. Bless you, Clete. I'm so glad you're posting here on TOL.

Right back at ya!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[glorydaz]

In 'Old GM's' learned opinion, Glorydaz is one of the FINEST Posters on TOL. I just wanted to say this, publicly.

You're just partial cause you brought me here. :rotfl:


Love you, too, GM.