ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[tetelestai]

2 Peter 1
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

The Transfiguration was not a "coming". Jesus was already here.

Moreover, in Matt 16:27, it says Jesus comes with angels, and rewards each person with gifts.

None of those things happened at the Transfiguration.

Lastly, the Transfiguration happened 6 days after Jesus said "some of you will not taste death....". That implies that most of them would be dead when the coming took place.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

 

[tetelestai]

when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

You're implying that Peter is using the word "coming" to mean the Transfiguration.

The Transfiguration was not a "coming". Where was Jesus coming from? Jesus had not gone anywhere at that point in time.

You keep ignoring Matt 12:27. There were no angels, and there were no gifts.

And, you are intellectually dishonest when you ignore the fact that Jesus said "some of you will not taste death..", for an event that you claim would happen 6 days later.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:doh:

 

[tetelestai]

:doh:

Followers of Darby do that a lot.

Cause, no matter how hard you try, Dispensationalism cannot stand the test of scripture.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:chuckle:

 

[whitestone]

Tet certainly does.
This one of his always cracked me up.

To Tet, that lightening bolt on the flag of the Roman army was the 'fire from heaven' - Rev 13:13.
Tet will resort to any goofiness.

lol, It's one of my favourite’s too... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_XII_Fulminata lol,,,if you scroll down to "great Jewish revolt" Eleazar ben Simom took those pretty little things away from the 12'th at Beit-Horon lol I guess he thinks God's Fire from heaven works like that,,,or maybe he's copying someone's homework and hoping their right?

 

[tetelestai]

or maybe he's copying someone's homework and hoping their right?

Here's what we know happened from 66AD-70AD:

There were thousands of dead bodies in the Sea of Galilee and Jordan River, with so much blood, the river and sea looked red.

Jerusalem divided into three sections.

The Romans catapulted painted white stones that weighed one talent at the city.

The Romans surrounded the city, and built an embankments.

The temple was completely destroyed, with not one stone left standing upon another.

Now, you can ignore all these things, despite the fact that every event was prophesied in Revelation, and by Jesus.

For fun, let's talk about what has to happen for your MAD eschatology to work:

A third temple would have to be built, then an army would have to surround the city of Jerusalem, then the Christians in Judaea would have to flee to the mountains, then the temple, and city would have to be destroyed with not one stone left standing upon another.

Then a fourth temple would have to be built, so Jesus could sit on a throne in Jerusalem, and oversee animal sacrifices for sin atonement.

Do you ever stop and think how ridiculous your MAD eschatology is? All while having to deny actual historical events that took place?

 

[whitestone]

Here's what we know happened from 66AD-70AD:

There were thousands of dead bodies in the Sea of Galilee and Jordan River, with so much blood, the river and sea looked red.

Jerusalem divided into three sections.

The Romans catapulted painted white stones that weighed one talent at the city.

The Romans surrounded the city, and built an embankments.

The temple was completely destroyed, with not one stone left standing upon another.

Now, you can ignore all these things, despite the fact that every event was prophesied in Revelation, and by Jesus.

For fun, let's talk about what has to happen for your MAD eschatology to work:

A third temple would have to be built, then an army would have to surround the city of Jerusalem, then the Christians in Judaea would have to flee to the mountains, then the temple, and city would have to be destroyed with not one stone left standing upon another.

Then a fourth temple would have to be built, so Jesus could sit on a throne in Jerusalem, and oversee animal sacrifices for sin atonement.

Do you ever stop and think how ridiculous your MAD eschatology is? All while having to deny actual historical events that took place?

"Block that kick!,block that kick...lol"

Naw, really did you know that the 12th had actually got tore plum up by the Jews when you said what you did about them?

 

[tetelestai]

Naw, really did you know that the 12th had actually got tore plum up by the Jews when you said what you did about them?

"Gallus was legate of Syria from 63 or 65. He marched into Judea with a force of over 30,000 men in September 66 in an attempt to restore order at the outset of the Great Jewish Revolt. As assembled at Antioch, Gallus' army comprised legio XII Fulminata, detachments from the three other legions based in Syria,....Gallus succeeded in conquering Beit She'arim in the Lower Galilee, seat of the Great Sanhedrin (Jewish supreme religious court) in later times. With his force reduced by detachments sent to occupy Galilee and the Judean coast, Gallus turned inland to subdue Jerusalem. After suffering losses amongst his baggage train and rearguard, Gallus reached Mount Scopus and penetrated the outer city, but was apparently unable to take The Temple Mount. After a siege of nine days, Gallus decided (for reasons which remain obscure) to fall back to the coast." SOURCE

(Luke 21:20) "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

No matter how hard you try to fight history, you can't do it. And, no matter how hard you try to make Darby's false teaching work, you can't do it.

 

[tetelestai]

lol, It's one of my favourite’s too... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_XII_Fulminata lol,,,if you scroll down to "great Jewish revolt" Eleazar ben Simom took those pretty little things away from the 12'th at Beit-Horon lol I guess he thinks God's Fire from heaven works like that,,,or maybe he's copying someone's homework and hoping their right?

"In 70, the Legio XII Fulminata had the chance for revenge when it joined the army brought by Titus for the siege of Jerusalem. There, by all accounts they did good service, assaulting the Joppa Gate in conjunction with Legio IV Scythica (their frequent partner in misfortune). The siege lasted some 139 days of hard fighting, the 12th sometimes facing heavy opposition from the very same artillery they had abandonned to the enemy four years before." - SOURCE

 

[tetelestai]

(Rev 16:18) Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

The following is from Josephus:

"for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming." - Josephus The Wars of the Jews 4.4.5.

 

[whitestone]

"Gallus was legate of Syria from 63 or 65. He marched into Judea with a force of over 30,000 men in September 66 in an attempt to restore order at the outset of the Great Jewish Revolt. As assembled at Antioch, Gallus' army comprised legio XII Fulminata, detachments from the three other legions based in Syria,....Gallus succeeded in conquering Beit She'arim in the Lower Galilee, seat of the Great Sanhedrin (Jewish supreme religious court) in later times. With his force reduced by detachments sent to occupy Galilee and the Judean coast, Gallus turned inland to subdue Jerusalem. After suffering losses amongst his baggage train and rearguard, Gallus reached Mount Scopus and penetrated the outer city, but was apparently unable to take The Temple Mount. After a siege of nine days, Gallus decided (for reasons which remain obscure) to fall back to the coast." SOURCE

(Luke 21:20) "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

No matter how hard you try to fight history, you can't do it. And, no matter how hard you try to make Darby's false teaching work, you can't do it.

did you read the source you gave? It explains the defeat at Beth/Biet Horon(same place) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethoron and that’s where the 12'th lost their eagle(Jews tore them up and took their toy's)

Other than that we do know that in the beginning of the war the Romans went to Jerusalem(ad66/Sept.in the quote you gave) but for obscure reasons "left?" then the 12'th got tore up in the obscure retreat?

 

[tetelestai]

did you read the source you gave? It explains the defeat at Beth/Biet Horon(same place)

Yes, but on the way back AFTER they had surrounded Jerusalem for nine days.

Other than that we do know that in the beginning of the war the Romans went to Jerusalem(ad66/Sept.in the quote you gave) but for obscure reasons "left?" then the 12'th got tore up in the obscure retreat?

Doesn't matter that they got defeated on their way back.

They surrounded Jerusalem for nine days, then left. That gave the Christians a chance to flee to the hills, just as Jesus had said.

If they didn't retreat after surrounding the city, there would have been no way for the Christians to flee to the hills.

(Luke 21:20-21) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

That's exactly what happened.

The 12th Legion surrounded the city for nine days, then mysteriously retreated, then the Christians fled to the hills.

"After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city" - Josephus, Jewish War 2:20:1

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella" - Eusebius, Book III, 5:4

Again, it all happened exactly how Jesus said it would happen.

 

[whitestone]

Yes, but on the way back AFTER they had surrounded Jerusalem for nine days.



Doesn't matter that they got defeated on their way back.

They surrounded Jerusalem for nine days, then left. That gave the Christians a chance to flee to the hills, just as Jesus had said.

If they didn't retreat after surrounding the city, there would have been no way for the Christians to flee to the hills.

(Luke 21:20-21) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

That's exactly what happened.

The 12th Legion surrounded the city for nine days, then mysteriously retreated, then the Christians fled to the hills.

"After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city" - Josephus, Jewish War 2:20:1

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella" - Eusebius, Book III, 5:4

Again, it all happened exactly how Jesus said it would happen.

And what is it that you said the lightning bolt's standards represented (verse?)...

 

[tetelestai]

And what is it that you said the lightning bolt's standards represented (verse?)...

You keep focusing on the lightning bolts.

The following should clarify:

(Rev 16:18) Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

The following is from Josephus:

"for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming." - Josephus The Wars of the Jews 4.4.5.

 

[whitestone]

You keep focusing on the lightning bolts.

The following should clarify:

lol,you keep trying not to...

 

[tetelestai]

(Rev 16:19) The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Once again, it happened exactly as it was supposed to:

"This year was marked by bitter civil war between the three factions under Simon, John, and Eleazar. According to Tacitus, "there were three generals and three armies, and between these three there was constant fighting, treachery, and arson" (Histories 5.12.3). Although Titus Flavius, the son of Emperor Vespasian, and his army were nearing Jerusalem, Eleazar and the other two leaders did not unite to prepare for the attack and were severely weakened by 70 AD. For example, some of the Zealots under Eleazar burned large stockpiles of food that would have lasted the Jews several years in order to "remove the security blanket" and force everyone to fight (Goodman 195)." SOURCE

 

[musterion]

Here's what we know happened from 66AD-70AD:

There were thousands of dead bodies in the Sea of Galilee and Jordan River, with so much blood, the river and sea looked red.

Jerusalem divided into three sections.

The Romans catapulted painted white stones that weighed one talent at the city.

The Romans surrounded the city, and built an embankments.

The temple was completely destroyed, with not one stone left standing upon another.

FAIL.

The Lord said not one stone IN ALL OF JERUSALEM would be left standing one upon another. Luke 19:42-44

That did not happen in 70. Josephus said so.

You have a preconception - preterism - that you refuse to question, even to the point of ignoring, denying or twisting the Bible to match preterism when it doesn't.

That's what the pharisees did.

 

[tetelestai]

FAIL.

The Lord said not one stone IN ALL OF JERUSALEM would be left standing one upon another. Luke 19:44

More desperation from the mysteryboy.

(Luke 19:43) The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.

"Titus splits his forces to build four embankments: Legions V and XII build earthworks against the Antonia Fortress so as to attack the Temple, and Legions X and XV build works in the northern part of this city across from John Hyrcanus' monument in order to take the Upper City. The rebels fire on them with hundreds of artillery pieces."

"As the construction of the embankments proceeds the Romans capture escapees from the city, as many as 500 a day. Prisoners are tortured, killed, then crucified before the walls to intimidate the populace. Titus is saddened by thie necessity of the crucifixions. "So great was their number, that space could not be found for the crosses nor crosses for the bodies."

"The legions build several embankments to approach the First Wall: one at the northwest corner of the inner Temple, one at the northern hall between two gates, one opposite the west portico of the outer court, and one opposite the north portico. The work is exhausting, timber having to be carried from a great distance." SOURCE