If, Like Jesus, People Are Born NOT Dead in Sin, Then . . .

[Epoisses]

Augustine's profound error that humans are somehow born dead in some places and alive in others strips us of the ability to know Christ in that way. Shame on him! And shame on us for believing it.

All people are born spiritually dead in sin and under the death penalty for the broken law of God. To say that we are not negates the purpose of Christ even coming and saving us from sin and said broken law. The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked - don't listen to it.

 

[Samie]

All people are born spiritually dead in sin and under the death penalty for the broken law of God. To say that we are not negates the purpose of Christ even coming and saving us from sin and said broken law. The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked - don't listen to it.

On the cross, God through Christ created the One New Man: Christ the Head, Humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died (2 Cor 5:14, 15); when the Head resurrected, the Body resurrected, made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13).

People are born already spiritually alive in Christ, having been born again when Jesus resurrected (1 Pet 1:3). To say that we are still born spiritually dead in sin is to negate in unbelief that which God through Christ did FOR humanity on the cross.

 

[Samie]

Christ - Who was in all things made like unto His brethren (Heb 2:17), sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3), made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7) - was born spiritually alive. He is the COPY from the PATTERN - His brethren. As the PATTERN, so is the COPY.

Since the COPY was born spiritually alive, the PATTERN must necessarily be born spiritually alive. Being the Savior of the PATTERN, the COPY did not sin.

If people are yet born spiritually dead in sin, how was Jesus the COPY from the PATTERN?

If people are born spiritually dead in sin, then they are born APART from Christ, and they can do NOTHING: they can't believe nor repent. But the fact that people can believe and repent tells us that people can do SOMETHING, therefore, they are born NOT apart from Christ, born spiritually alive.

 

[Epoisses]

On the cross, God through Christ created the One New Man: Christ the Head, Humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died (2 Cor 5:14, 15); when the Head resurrected, the Body resurrected, made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13).

People are born already spiritually alive in Christ, having been born again when Jesus resurrected (1 Pet 1:3). To say that we are still born spiritually dead in sin is to negate in unbelief that which God through Christ did FOR humanity on the cross.

You're ignoring the reality of the situation on the ground. Just look out your window Samie. We still live in a world of sin, suffering and death. Every person you see is going to die and 99% are not born again.

 

[dodge]

So what?

You were asking me if I was physically present when Jesus lived, died and resurrected. I countered that Paul was likewise NOT physically present then but he said he was crucified with Christ.

Unbiblical? I have given the verses that prove my point that man's new birth occurred when Jesus rose from the dead. How can you say I negate the new birth?

But until now you have not given even one verse that says people are born again when they believe.

Act 16:30
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?


Act 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Act 16:32
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

 

[Samie]

You're ignoring the reality of the situation on the ground. Just look out your window Samie. We still live in a world of sin, suffering and death.

Like Jesus, people are born spiritually alive. That is, they are born able to sin and able to not sin. Jesus chose to not sin. People chose to sin, to be overcome of evil instead of overcoming it with good.

Every person you see is going to die and 99% are not born again.

It appears we don't have the same definition of being born again.

For me, to be born again is to be spiritually alive, that is, able to sin and able to not sin: to be overcome of evil and able to overcome evil with good. To be born spiritually dead in sin is to be born able to sin and not able to not sin: to be overcome of evil and not able to overcome evil.

The 99% you said are not born again have done one single good act in their lifetime. That proves they are able to sin, and able to not sin.

 

[Samie]

Act 16:30
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?


Act 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Act 16:32
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Let's get down to definition of terms. My definition is stated here.

The jailer is able to sin and able to not sin, able to do bad and able to do good, hence ALREADY spiritually alive PRIOR to believing.

There are 3 Tenses of Salvation. Past, Present, Future. Man's being born again occurred in the Past Tense, being God's work FOR man. Believing occurs in the Present Tense. "Thou shalt be saved" will occur in the Future Tense.

And the issue is being born again. The verse you provided caters to how people will be saved (future tense), NOT how people are born again (Past Tense).

Again, people were born again when Jesus rose from the grave (1 Pet 1:3).

 

[dodge]

Let's get down to definition of terms. My definition is stated here.

The jailer is able to sin and able to not sin, able to do bad and able to do good, hence ALREADY spiritually alive PRIOR to believing.

There are 3 Tenses of Salvation. Past, Present, Future. Man's being born again occurred in the Past Tense, being God's work FOR man. Believing occurs in the Present Tense. "Thou shalt be saved" will occur in the Future Tense.

And the issue is being born again. The verse you provided caters to how people will be saved (future tense), NOT how people are born again (Past Tense).

Again, people were born again when Jesus rose from the grave (1 Pet 1:3).

Sure there is a tense of salvation. The jailer said what must I do to be saved, he knew he was lost, and that is why the Apostle told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE saved. The will be showed that he was lost.

 

[Epoisses]

Like Jesus, people are born spiritually alive. That is, they are born able to sin and able to not sin. Jesus chose to not sin. People chose to sin, to be overcome of evil instead of overcoming it with good.

We don't chose to sin or not to sin. This is an Arminian delusion. The power of choice is a rope of sand. We believe in Jesus and he gives us the victory over sin or we reject Jesus and he lets us die in our sins. The 'choice' gospel is very popular today but a delusion.

 

[Samie]

We don't chose to sin or not to sin. This is an Arminian delusion. The power of choice is a rope of sand. We believe in Jesus and he gives us the victory over sin or we reject Jesus and he lets us die in our sins. The 'choice' gospel is very popular today but a delusion.

To overcome evil or be overcome of evil entails a decision one has to make. And Jesus said overcomers will be seated with Him in His throne, just as He Himself was also an overcomer.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[TFTn5280]

All people are born spiritually dead in sin and under the death penalty for the broken law of God.

Indeed this is the belief to which Augustine eventually devolved in the course of his extended debate with Pelagius. I will state the understanding of the early church relative to "life" and "death" below, that of Athanasius in particular.

To say that we are not negates the purpose of Christ even coming and saving us from sin and said broken law.

This is in no way the case. Christ came to save us from such tyrants as sin, death, the devil, and the law, perfect though it was; from none of which could humans save themselves, death being their final demise. There is no compulsion to adopt Augustine's view in order to surmise a purpose for the absolute necessity of a Savior. If humanity were to gain victory over the tyrants, with God's adoption as sons and daughters, inclusive of life everlasting, being the ultimate purpose of their existence (see Eph 1.4-9), Christ must NECESSARILY have come.

The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked - don't listen to it.

Good advise but beside the point.

Early Christians, Athanasius in particular, understood "life" to be an everlasting state of "becoming," the ultimate purpose of which becoming like God. Since God was infinite and eternal, those who experience life could and would forever be becoming more and more like God, in fellowship and union with Him.

With that as their understanding and definition of life, "death" was understood to be its negation: death was therefore the unbecoming of life, its finale being an absolute return to nothingness, out of which life and all else had been created.

Hence their understanding: Adam was created on a trajectory of becoming more and more like God as he matured in communion with God. Precisely at his fall, that trajectory changed. With sin came death, and it was inescapable. Separate a Savior, Adam was now on a course which would return him to that from which he had been created. This was true of his progeny as well ("All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return" Ecc 3.20; see also Gen 3.19). After the fall, "becoming" was no more. As a result of sin, all humans could do was die.

In Scripture and to the early church, death meant "a return to nothingness" ~ and nothing more. Christians had no concept of a spirit which could be separated from the soul ~ i.e., the entirety of a person ~ and somehow be dead while the rest of the person lived and functioned as a human being. Death meant the end of the entire person: spirit, mind, and body! This dichotomous view of person-hood was introduced by Augustine approx. 400 years after the cross, and it came as a result his pagan background, where he was heavily influenced by Manichaeism and afterward by the neo-Platonism of Plotinus. In Scripture and the writings of the early church, there is no mention of "spiritual" death. There is only life and death. To live is to grow in communion with God, in Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit. And to die is to return to that from which we were created: non-existence, no-thingness.

Have a blessed day.

 

[genuineoriginal]

All people are born spiritually dead

Like Jesus, people are born spiritually alive.

There are people that have turned others away from the truth by speaking about people being "spiritually dead" and "spiritually alive".

The Bible never says people are "spiritually dead" or "spiritually alive".

The Bible speaks about our finial state after the Judgment.

Romans 8:13 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

 

[Samie]

There are people that have turned others away from the truth by speaking about people being "spiritually dead" and "spiritually alive".

The Bible never says people are "spiritually dead" or "spiritually alive".

My use of "spiritually alive" and "spiritually dead" is limited to the ff definition:

spiritually alive: able to sin and able to not sin
spiritually dead: able to sin and not able to not sin

 

[genuineoriginal]

My use of "spiritually alive" and "spiritually dead" is limited to the ff definition:

spiritually alive: able to sin and able to not sin
spiritually dead: able to sin and not able to not sin

By that definition, everyone born is spiritually alive and no one is spiritually dead until their body has died.

 

[TFTn5280]

By that definition, everyone born is spiritually alive and no one is spiritually dead until their body has died.

May I say something? I believe the above statement is precisely correct...given one caveat: Jesus Christ covered that "first" death on the cross for every living human being ever. "For if one died for all, then all died." And then he did something which had never before been done: he rose again. And in his resurrection Christ changed the nature of this first death forever: No longer could death hold anyone in the grave; death had lost its sting. In Christ's resurrection is the resurrection of all humanity, humanity's birth this time "from above," all humanity "born again," born both of water and the Spirit, humanity "begotten again" to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead!

Indeed there are several aspects to the Atonement accomplished by Christ on our behalf, but in this one aspect Jesus rose victorious over everything which stood in opposition to everlasting life in fellowship with him. In Christ was the utter and absolute undoing of Adam and all that Adam had destroyed in the fall, a complete and total victory over sin, death, and the devil, AND anything else that could in any way stand opposed to life in fullness in him: all sort of sickness, psychosis, and dysfunction relative to natures fallen to the depravities of sin, even to the point the Bible says that Christ became sin himself, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. And so what should we do who find our breath in the resurrection of Jesus Christ? We should live for him! "And he died for all that those who live should live no longer for themselves but for him who died for them and rose again." Victorious over the very things which kill us, we are called to live for Christ. Duh, how difficult is that?

Sadly, however, there awaits a "second" death, a death for which Christ did not die, and a death from which there is no resurrection. Who will ultimately taste that death? I do not believe it is for us to say. I believe we do nevertheless have many reasons to believe that that number is far fewer than most of us have been led to believe. And I would love to go into the reasons why should anyone else care to know. But that is for another time.

Thanks for allowing me to bust in. Sometimes though the news is just too good to keep to myself!

 

[genuineoriginal]

You can add your opinion any time.
It is a shame your ideas of universal salvation are not supported by the Bible.

 

[Epoisses]

There are people that have turned others away from the truth by speaking about people being "spiritually dead" and "spiritually alive".

The Bible never says people are "spiritually dead" or "spiritually alive".

The Bible speaks about our finial state after the Judgment.

Romans 8:13 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

The bible does say that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. When the Holy Spirit convicts us as sinners and we see our true state it leads us to Christ and the foot of the cross. This is why Samie's ideas are so evil. If we are not sinners then there is no need of a savior.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The bible does say that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. When the Holy Spirit convicts us as sinners and we see our true state it leads us to Christ and the foot of the cross. This is why Samie's ideas are so evil. If we are not sinners then there is no need of a savior.

Exactly.

 

[Samie]

By that definition, everyone born is spiritually alive and no one is spiritually dead until their body has died.

If you look more closely, my definition applies to only those physically alive.

 

[Samie]

The bible does say that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. When the Holy Spirit convicts us as sinners and we see our true state it leads us to Christ and the foot of the cross. This is why Samie's ideas are so evil. If we are not sinners then there is no need of a savior.

Did I say we are not sinners?

Through what God through Christ has done, we are all born spiritually alive: able to sin and able to not sin. It is always a fight between good (able to not sin) and evil (able to sin), hence the call to repent, that is, to overcome evil with good, because we all have sinned and therefore sinners. But only those who God judges as overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life, but will be seated with Christ - Who Himself is an overcomer - on His throne.

That people are born spiritually dead (able to sin and not able to not sin) and yet able to believe simply does not make sense. For how can one, who is NOT able to not sin, overcome the evil and sin of unbelief by believing? The fact that people are able to believe and hence able to not sin, proves they are spiritually alive.

To say that people are born spiritually dead (able to sin and not able to not sin) is a display of unbelief in what God through Christ had done so people can be born spiritually alive.