If, Like Jesus, People Are Born NOT Dead in Sin, Then . . .
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genuineoriginal
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Yes, they do.
Both of them have accepted the heretical teachings of Augustine, and this has tainted their doctrines.
They have another Gospel, Galatians 1:6-10.
genuineoriginal
New member
There are problems with the statements in each of the five points of Arminianism and the five points of Calvinism.
Arminianism relies too much on man's choices and Calvinism rejects man's ability to choose.
Arminianism relies too much on man's choices and Calvinism rejects man's ability to choose.
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Calvinism vs Arminianism – Comparison Chart
Calvinism vs Arminianism – Comparison Chart
| THE “FIVE POINTS” OF ARMINIANISM | THE “FIVE POINTS” OF CALVINISM |
| Free Will or Human Ability Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation. | Total Inability or Total Depravity Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not — indeed he cannot — choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ — it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation— it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God. |
| Conditional Election God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation. | Unconditional Election God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before fore the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation. |
| Universal Redemption or General Atonement Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it. | Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation |
| The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man. | The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The eternal call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By mean, of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’, grace. therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended. |
| Falling From Grace Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith. etc. All Arminian, have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ — that once a sinner is regenerated. he can never be lost. | Perseverance of the Saints All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. |
| According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond)—man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, “choose” to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. REJECTED by the Synod of DortThis was the system of thought contained in the “Remonstrance” (though the “five points” were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural. | According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. REAFFIRMED by the Synod of DortThis system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into “five points” (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as “the five points of Calvinism.” |
The first two columns below are from what genuineoriginal posted. The 3rd column is what I understand from Scriptures.
| THE “FIVE POINTS” OF ARMINIANISM | THE “FIVE POINTS” OF CALVINISM | THE “FIVE POINTS” OF PIMENTELISM |
| Free Will or Human Ability Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation. | Total Inability or Total Depravity Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not — indeed he cannot — choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ — it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation— it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God. | Spiritual Reinstatement Through the Plan of Redemption Adam, by his own death that day he sinned, could have paid the penalty for his sin, but that would be his eternal end. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So right on that same day Adam fell into sin, God implemented the plan of redemption devised before the foundation of the world. God's plan made it possible for man to not only pay for the penalty of his own sin, but also reinstated man to his pre-fall spiritual status and gave him another shot at eternal life. That plan was revealed in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. |
| Conditional Election God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation. | Unconditional Election God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before fore the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation. | General Election God’s choice of everyone in Adam’s race before the foundation of the world rested solely in His grace and great love for His creatures. He predestined all for adoption as children in Jesus, and on the cross fashioned them into the Body of His Son, gave each one faith that they may please Him and gain victory over evil. Being part of His Body, all have His Power to overcome evil with good. Thus God’s choice of man made him part of the Body of Christ, but it is man’s choice whether or not to remain part of the Body by overcoming evil with good. It is Christ Who finally decides whether to remove a person from His Body by blotting his name from the book of life. |
| Universal Redemption or General Atonement Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it. | Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement Christ’s redeeming work intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation | Universal and Unconditional Redemption or Atonement God through Christ’s redeeming work intended to save all of Adam’s race and actually secured salvation for them by fashioning them into the Body of Christ on the cross where the One New Man was created: Christ the Head, humanity the Body. When the Head died, the Body died, and the penalty for sin was paid for and all were washed clean from sin and forgiven. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again to a living hope. Hence, everyone is born already In Christ. But only those who in their lifetime God through Christ judges as having overcome evil with good will not be dismembered from the Body His Son and will ultimately make it to the heavenly portals. |
| The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man. | The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The eternal call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By mean, of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’, grace. therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended. | The General Call to Repentance God so loved the world that He fashioned all into the Body of Christ, no one exempted nor left out. Yet He does not overrule the will of His creatures in responding to His love by overcoming evil with good, hence His call for all men everywhere to repent. Being part of the Body of Christ, a person has His Power to overcome evil. It is not a question of inability but one of refusal, if one does not overcome evil with good. Being members of the family of God, we all grow up in Christ. Those who God determines that it is best for them to know about His Son, He will send someone to them, just as the Holy Spirit directed Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch who readily accepted and believed in Christ. Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief and disbelief. Being members of His family, God assigns to us our own unique responsibilities commensurate with our spiritual level of maturity. And God through Christ judges whether one is an overcomer or not after a person dies. There’s hope while alive. |
| Falling From Grace Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith. etc. All Arminian, have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ — that once a sinner is regenerated. he can never be lost. | Perseverance of the Saints All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. | Perseverance to Overcome Evil with Good Being part of the Body of Christ, one is expected to act in accordance with what the Head wants its body part to do under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Only those who God through Christ judges as having persevered in overcoming evil with good will remain part of the Body of Christ. |
| According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond)—man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, “choose” to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. REJECTED by the Synod of DortThis was the system of thought contained in the “Remonstrance” (though the “five points” were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural. | According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. REAFFIRMED by the Synod of DortThis system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into “five points” (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as “the five points of Calvinism.” | According to Pimentelism: Salvation has three Tenses (or 3 Dimensions of the Gospel): Past, Present, Future. All benefited in the past and present tenses, but only overcomers will positively benefit from the future tense. In the Past Tense, contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God through Christ fashioned all into the Body of His Son. In the Present Tense, God through Christ, justifies us each time we commit sin, and remembers our sin no more. But the act of sinning reminds the person he is overcome of evil instead of overcoming it with good. When a person dies, God through Christ judges whether the person is an overcomer or not. Overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life and in the future tense of salvation, when Christ comes again, will be rewarded with life eternal. All others will suffer the wrath of God – the 7 last plagues – and finally thrown into the lake of fire. This is Pimentel’s alternative to the five points of both Arminianism and Calvinism. |
genuineoriginal
New member
It appears you believe in universal salvation and limited damnation.
Looks like it, maybe.
genuineoriginal
New member
My belief is a bit different.
I believe the call to repent is universal.
Those that refuse to repent are damned.
Only those that answer the call are written in the book of the living.
Those that answer the call are tested to see if they will maintain their faith.
Those that fail to maintain their faith are damned.
Their names are blotted out from the book of the living.
God chooses only those that pass the testing of their faith, the ones that endure until the end.
These are the ones that will be given eternal life in the resurrection.
I believe that to be In Christ is to be written in the book of life. I could not see how one could be In Christ but not yet written in the book of life, or vice versa.
It necessarily follows that if one could only be written in the BoL or be In Christ IF he repents, then that smells of salvation by works. Our being In Christ or being written in the BoL is all God's work FOR man; NOT an iota of human participation. All grace, no human work involved.
| KJV Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. |
genuineoriginal
New member
That is the logical conclusion.
No, it is salvation by faith.
Read Hebrews 11 to find out what faith looks like.
Who chooses which people get their names written in the book, and what is the criteria He uses for choosing those people?
Here it is:
Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. |
There is human participation and human work involved, but a man cannot save himself.
A man can get noticed by God through his faith and God can choose to save that man.
But, God has His standards, and those people that do not meet God's standards will not be saved.
Now don't start assuming God's standards are as difficult to meet as Satan would have you believe.
Epoisses
New member
So do you, seeing you reject the new birth that was spoken of by Christ himself.
Epoisses
New member
I agree.
Me? Why me and not you?
I don't reject the new birth because I believe we ALL were born again through the resurrection of Jesus, as the Bible EXPLICITLY says . But you don't believe in what 1 Peter 1:3 says. You teach that people are born again when they believe, YET you cannot cite one single verse that says so.
In your sequence of events: 1. believe first, then 2. get written in the BoL or be In Christ. That's cart before the horse because if one is NOT In Christ he can do NOTHING: he cannot believe. And Christ EXPLICITLY said so.
It must be, In Christ first by God's grace, then people can do SOMETHING: they can now believe, etc. God gets the credit. In your sequence, UNLESS man puts in his share into the basket (believe first), he cannot be saved. So, man gets the credit. Clearly, that's salvation by works.
Epoisses
New member
The new birth does not happen when we are physically born, Samie! Every son and daughter of Adam has two possible destinies. One of sin and death which they inherit from Adam and one of eternal life which they inherit from Christ or the 2nd Adam. We receive our physical and fleshly inheritance at natural birth and our spiritual inheritance at the new birth or conversion.
Of course not. Did I even say that? Are you reading and understanding what I posted?
We were born again WHEN Jesus rose from the dead. NOT when we are physically born. Scriptures say we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13) and that God gave us new birth through the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 1:3) that's why I say our new birth occurred WHEN Jesus resurrected. But you don't seem to believe what those verses say.
Now, give me even one verse that the new birth occurs at conversion.
Epoisses
New member
We are born again when we believe in Jesus Christ as our savior and receive the Holy Spirit. It's common knowledge to anyone that has experienced conversion. The vast majority of Christians today are carnal and unconverted. This is why there are so many problems in the church with the great falling away from truth that Paul spoke of just before the man of sin is revealed.
Common knowledge does not necessarily mean it's what the Bible says. Can you provide the verse I'm asking for? If there's none, do I have to reject what Scriptures say (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 1:3) and exchange it for common knowledge?
Epoisses
New member
Jesus lived a perfect life for you, died for all your sins and rose again for your justification. Were you physically present when this happened?
No. But the Bible says God gave us new birth when Jesus rose again. I have provided the verses.
Even Paul was NOT physically present with Jesus when Jesus was crucified, yet Paul said he was crucified with Him (Gal 2:20).
So where's the verse I was asking you to provide that people are born again when they believe?