ECT If By Grace Then It Is No More of Works

[glorydaz]

Jerry, I quote your words :
“according to Paul a person is declared righteous in the eyes of God and that righteouness has nothing to do with keeping the moral law.”
The Scriptures are quite clear that salvation (grace) is totally undeserved gift of God, which cannot be earned. This is also the teaching of the Catholic Church.
But to say that “righteousness has nothing to do with keeping the moral law” is seriously misleading because it implies that there are no conditions to be fulfilled by the one who receives the grace. You cannot be saying that people can become righteous without repenting? “Unless you repent you will perish like they did..”(Luke 13:1-9).
Of course it is not the repentance which CAUSES the righteousness.
It is sin which causes unrighteousness and persistence in sin is opposed to grace. So the truth is not “either grace or obedience” it is ‘both and”.
Patrick Cronin.

I'm sure Jerry will respond, but you may not have noticed what he actually said.

He said "that righteousness" speaking of that which declares us righteous...the righteousness of faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Scriptures are quite clear that salvation (grace) is totally undeserved gift of God, which cannot be earned. This is also the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Here is what Rome teaches:

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions" (Catechism of the Catholic church 2010).​

If a person has to merit for himself "eternal life" then how can eternal life be described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23)? Men receive this gift of eternal life when they "believe," as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

We can see the same truth here:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

You cannot be saying that people can become righteous without repenting? “Unless you repent you will perish like they did..”(Luke 13:1-9).

The verses which you cite from the gospel of Luke are in regard to "physical" death. The Lord Jesus was warning those to whom He was speaking to have a change of mind (repent) about His warnings given earlier (Lk.12:49). If they did not heed His warnings to flee to the mountains (Lk.21:20-24) then they would die physically. In the Pulpit Commentary we read this;

"Verse 5. - Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. The words were indeed prophetic to the letter. Thousands of Jews perished in the last terrible war by the swords of the Roman legionaries, like the Galilaeans of ver. 1; not a few met their death in the capital among the ruins of the burning fallen houses. We know that Jerusalem in its entirety was destroyed, and the loss of life in the siege, and especially in its dread closing scenes, was simply incalculable. Within forty years all this happened."​

 

[God's Truth]

Thanks for letting me know that you made this thread. I am so glad you have dedicated a thread for this topic. It is a topic of utmost importance, and from where so many false doctrines come from. I cannot stress this enough. I hope that we can discuss this carefully, and slowly, and thoroughly.

 

[God's Truth]

If By Grace Then It Is No More of Works
There are some, like the poster who goes by the name of "God's Truth," who say that the "works of law" in the following verse is only in regard to the ceremonial ordinances of purification under the law of Moses:

I will prove that truth to you from the scriptures and I will attempt to reason with you.

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Listen carefully to what Paul says; he speaks of righteousness and the law. He says the works of the law.

The works of the law that made the people righteous to come before God were the purification/ceremonial works.

The Gentiles were dead in their sins because they did not do those ceremonial works.

There was no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood, and the blood of animals had to be shed.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Did you read that how Paul tells the Gentiles they were dead in their sins and in the un-circumcision of their flesh?

Then Paul says God forgave them, he did not make the Gentiles get circumcised first.

Here Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).

Paul says that it was the moral law (thou shalt not covet) which resulted in him having the knowledge of sin. So in the following verse when Paul refers to "law" he is referring to the moral law:

You went from Romans 3:20 to Romans 7:7 and made them about the same thing.
Romans 7:7 is, as you say, the way Paul was taught about sin, but that does not change the fact that the people had to do the ceremonial works to deal with their sin nature.

Therefore, Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the moral law. Then just eight verses later Paul makes it plain that a person's justification is apart from the works of the same law, the moral law:

You are mixing up the ceremonial works of the law with the moral aspects of the law. God would not put down anyone for keeping the moral law. That is just not right to say that.

So according to Paul a person is declared righteous in the eyes of God and that righteouness has nothing to do with keeping the moral law. Paul continues his discourse on this subject where he speaks of the same "works" when speaking of grace:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:3-5).

Paul is speaking about circumcision. Circumcision is the sign and seal of all the other purification/ceremonial works. Just count how many times Paul speaks of circumcision in Romans, and all the other times he speak of no works.

From this we can understand that keeping the moral law plays no part in one's salvation. We can also understand that the "works" in the following passage is also speaking of the moral law:

Earlier you added the word ‘moral law’ to a scripture where it did not say ‘moral law’.

"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Ro.11:6).

The remnant of Jews chosen by grace is about how some Jews had faith in God and some did not, the old law was not based on faith, it was based on all those purification/ceremonial works. The Jews who had faith were saved, and the Jews who did not have faith were cut off.

God did not like it that the people could sin, give a sin offering, but not really be sorry for their sins. They could just do the purification works and maintain their relationship as children of God.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You went from Romans 3:20 to Romans 7:7 and made them about the same thing.

You didn't even attempt to deal with what I said about Romans 3:20:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Here Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

Paul says that it was the moral law (thou shalt not covet) which resulted in him having the knowledge of sin. So in the following verse when Paul refers to "law" he is referring to the moral law:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Therefore, Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the moral law. Now show me where in the Scriptures we see that it was the ceremonial ordinances of purification which resulted in anyone gaining the knowledge of sin.

I hope that we can discuss this carefully, and slowly, and thoroughly.

Good idea. And so let us start with a careful examination of exactly what part of law resulted in the knowledge of sin. That is the key in understanding what Paul wrote at Romans 3:20 and 3:28:

"therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law" (Ro.3:28).​

 

[God's Truth]

You didn't even attempt to deal with what I said about Romans 3:20:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Of course I dealt with what you said about Romans 3:20. I addressed the word ‘law’ and ‘righteous’.

I will reason even more here about what you say about that scripture.

Listen to what Paul says, “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:” See Romans 2:14.

Did you read that? That goes against what you have been saying.

People did right and wrong before the law, but since the law, what was going to make them righteous? What was going to make them righteous now were the ceremonial/purification works of the law.

Think about it some more. How does getting circumcised in the flesh either make someone righteous or unrighteous? I will tell you how---because now, God was commanding circumcision.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Of course I dealt with what you said about Romans 3:20.

You just IGNORED what I said here:

Let us start with a careful examination of exactly what part of law resulted in the knowledge of sin.

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

 

[God's Truth]

YouHere Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).

Paul says that it was the moral law (thou shalt not covet) which resulted in him having the knowledge of sin. So in the following verse when Paul refers to "law" he is referring to the moral law:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Remember, Paul says BEFORE all that the Gentiles do by NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Now with that in mind, listen to what Paul says, he says the law which told him do not do this…it taught him things not to do that he might not ever have thought of doing.

You

Therefore, Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the moral law

Don’t add words that are not there. Paul is NOT saying ‘moral law’.
How do you EVER get that Paul is speaking against what he just said the Gentiles do by nature without the law?!

. Now show me where in the Scriptures we see that it was the ceremonial ordinances of purification which resulted in anyone gaining the knowledge of sin.

Okay, listen carefully, without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins; without the careful obedience to doing the purification/ceremonial works---you are UNCLEAN AND WITHOUT GOD.

Good idea. And so let us start with a careful examination of exactly what part of law resulted in the knowledge of sin. That is the key in understanding what Paul wrote at Romans 3:20 and 3:28:

"therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law" (Ro.3:28).

Just remember that Paul says the GENTILES do BY NATURE what is right, not having the law.

Just remember that God commanded the purification/ceremonial works of the law that had nothing to do with right and wrong on its own---but since God commanded it, it was now too a matter of righteousness because God said you had to be made clean to be one of His.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Okay, listen carefully, without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins; without the careful obedience to doing the purification/ceremonial works---you are UNCLEAN AND WITHOUT GOD.

Nothing which you said there demonstrates that the ceremonial law of purification resulted in the knowledge of sin.

 

[God's Truth]

Nothing which you said there demonstrates that the ceremonial law of purification resulted in the knowledge of sin.

The ceremonial works told people they had to clean themselves and sacrifice animals just so they can belong to God. They were considered unclean if they did not do those things.

Righteous works of the law was no longer just based on whether you do right and wrong by abstaining from evil, it was now about the works of the law, like circumcision and the sacrifice of animals.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The ceremonial works told people they had to clean themselves and sacrifice animals just so they can belong to God. They were considered unclean if they did not do those things.

Righteous works of the law was no longer just based on whether you do right and wrong by abstaining from evil, it was now about the works of the law, like circumcision and the sacrifice of animals.

Nothing you said even hints that the ceremonial laws of purification provided a "knowledge of sin" which is spoken of in this verse:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Here Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

You have provided absolutely NO evidence that supports your assertion that the words "works of law" spoken of by Paul at Romans 3:20 are in reference to the ceremonial laws of purification. On the other hand, my evidence is excellent and cannot be denied.

Do you still remain convinced that the words "works of law" are not in regard to the moral law?

 

[God's Truth]

Nothing you said even hints that the ceremonial laws of purification provided a "knowledge of sin" which is spoken of in this verse:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Here Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

You have provided absolutely NO evidence that supports your assertion that the words "works of law" spoken of by Paul at Romans 3:20 are in reference to the ceremonial laws of purification. On the other hand, my evidence is excellent and cannot be denied.

Do you still remain convinced that the words "works of law" are not in regard to the moral law?

All you have proven is that you think that mere denial is some kind of proof of God's Truth, and then you get a 'thanks' from someone else in your false beliefs and you feel empowered.

Stop being lazy, look at what I said and respond to it with more than your lazy 'no' and your lazy denials.

Ignorant, mentally insane, and ensnared people do exactly what you do when it comes to God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ignorant, mentally insane, and ensnared people do exactly what you do when it comes to God.

I see this all the time! When someone cannot answer the message they attack the messenger.

I am able to show that it was the moral law which resulted in the knowledge of sin. You are unable to provide any evidence that it was the ceremonial laws of purification which provided the knowledge of sin. Therefore, you attack me personally:

Ignorant, mentally insane, and ensnared people do exactly what you do when it comes to God.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Jerry, I quote your words :

“according to Paul a person is declared righteous in the eyes of God and that righteouness has nothing to do with keeping the moral law.”
The Scriptures are quite clear that salvation (grace) is totally undeserved gift of God, which cannot be earned. This is also the teaching of the Catholic Church.
But to say that “righteousness has nothing to do with keeping the moral law” is seriously misleading because it implies that there are no conditions to be fulfilled by the one who receives the grace. You cannot be saying that people can become righteous without repenting? “Unless you repent you will perish like they did..”(Luke 13:1-9).
Of course it is not the repentance which CAUSES the righteousness.

It is sin which causes unrighteousness and persistence in sin is opposed to grace. So the truth is not “either grace or obedience” it is ‘both and”.
Patrick Cronin.

Hello Patrick...

You can use the quote function to quote and then reply if you so desire. If you copy the brackes that are like this ...

[ ] and [/ ] ... these are the ways tol marks up the text... So the quote= code binds the quote to direct to the post it was quoted from. This assists in debate and back tracking discussion.

Now.... to the point... How many times are you saved? How many times do you repent for one sin and then say... but Lord... I mean it this time...?

Sincere logic applies here.

When Jesus said "It is finished"... did He pay half of your tab? 1/4 of your tab? or ALL of your Tab?

Consider this... He didn't die "so we could sin"... He died "Because we sin". Remember... he called SINNERS... think about it.

- EE

 

[Tambora]

Yes, and when the Lord works through someone, they may not even recognize it. I don't think we're supposed to...lest we be tempted to boast. 2 Cor. 12:7KJV

BINGO!

 

[God's Truth]

I see this all the time! When someone cannot answer the message they attack the messenger.

I am able to show that it was the moral law which resulted in the knowledge of sin. You are unable to provide any evidence that it was the ceremonial laws of purification which provided the knowledge of sin. Therefore, you attack me personally:

I am explaining the truth to you, but you are adding words that are not there. You put the words 'moral law' in where it does not belong.

Think about what you are going against.

You are going against obeying God's Powerful words.

Never ever did Jesus tell anyone to preach we do not have to do anything.

Not obeying is not the secret key to get in.

All the scriptures tell us to believe---those scriptures do not nullify the scriptures that say to obey.

We have to believe that Jesus takes away the SINS THAT WE REPENT of doing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am explaining the truth to you, but you are adding words that are not there.

You are ignoring the truth that the words "works of law" in this verse are not referring to the ceremonial law of purification but instead to the moral law:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Here Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).​

Paul says that it was the moral law (thou shalt not covet) which resulted in him having the knowledge of sin. So in the following verse when Paul refers to "law" he is referring to the moral law:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Therefore, Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the moral law.

You have provided absolutely no evidence which demonstrates that the ceremonial law of purification provided the knowledge of sin.

You put the words 'moral law' in where it does not belong.

The word "moral" is defined as "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). That would include the commandment under the law which says, "Thou shalt not covet."

Therefore, I have proved beyond any doubt that when Paul refers to the "works of law" in the followingverse he is referring to the moral law and not to the ceremonial laws of purification:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

Her Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of the Lord by keeping the moral law. And what follows just a few verses later reveals that believers are declared righteous in the eyes of God by his faith and not by keeping the moral laws:

"therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law" (Ro.3:28).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks for letting me know that you made this thread. I am so glad you have dedicated a thread for this topic. It is a topic of utmost importance, and from where so many false doctrines come from. I cannot stress this enough. I hope that we can discuss this carefully, and slowly, and thoroughly.

Yes, it is of upmost importance and that is why I am being patient, waiting for you to give your evidence that the words "works of law" are referring to the ordinances of purification under the law of Moses.

Since you want to discuss this subject carefully then I would expect that you will be able to back up your assertions with facts. So let's see your evidence.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks for letting me know that you made this thread. I am so glad you have dedicated a thread for this topic. It is a topic of utmost importance, and from where so many false doctrines come from. I cannot stress this enough. I hope that we can discuss this carefully, and slowly, and thoroughly.

I thought that you really had an interest in discussing this subject thoroughly but now I no longer believe that.

 

[God's Truth]

You are ignoring the truth that the words "works of law" in this verse are not referring to the ceremonial law of purification but instead to the moral law:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Here Paul speaks of "the works of law" and according to him that law is a "knowledge of sin." It is the moral law which is the knowledge of sin, as witnessed by what Paul said later in the same epistle:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Ro.7:7).

Paul says that it was the moral law (thou shalt not covet) which resulted in him having the knowledge of sin. So in the following verse when Paul refers to "law" he is referring to the moral law:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Therefore, Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of God by keeping the moral law.

You have provided absolutely no evidence which demonstrates that the ceremonial law of purification provided the knowledge of sin.

Paul is speaking about the ceremonial works of the law.
It is the WORKS of the law that made one righteous.
Think of the word ‘righteous’ and the works of the law, and now compare it to only needing faith that Jesus’ blood makes us righteous.

The works of the law are replaced by faith of the new law.
We still have to obey by abstaining from what is evil and doing right, but we no longer have to clean ourselves just to go to the temple to worship God, for Jesus cleans us and makes us righteous and we become the temple.

The word "moral" is defined as "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary). That would include the commandment under the law which says, "Thou shalt not covet."

Therefore, I have proved beyond any doubt that when Paul refers to the "works of law" in the followingverse he is referring to the moral law and not to the ceremonial laws of purification:

You don’t think Paul talks about the ceremonial works of the law, even though it was done for over 1,600.

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).

Her Paul is saying that no one is declared righteous in the eyes of the Lord by keeping the moral law. And what follows just a few verses later reveals that believers are declared righteous in the eyes of God by his faith and not by keeping the moral laws:

"therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law" (Ro.3:28).

Old Testament:
Make clean and righteous before God:
Works to clean yourself :

Circumcision
Special dietary law
Various external washings
The sacrifice of animals

New Testament
Make clean and righteous before God:

Faith that Jesus blood cleans you.