I YHWH will raise unto David a righteous Branch, a King over the Earth
- Thread starter beameup
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beameup
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beameup
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How does this "conclusion" of yours fit into Daniel 7:13-14?
Assembling ALL the pieces...
I presented no conclusion. Only the fact that you did not understand the verse in Jerimiah correctly. It is not a piece in your "secret code" puzzle. quite sorry.
I'll have a look at Daniel later.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Yet another reason why he couldn't be the messiah.
And what sense does it make to give the genealogy of somebody who is not his father??
Wrong. Just read it. It is also the genealogy of JOSEPH.
The name "Mary" is nowhere mentioned in that chapter.
So it is all utter nonsense.
Of course he will. There is no reason to doubt the prophets of God.
However, besides your messiah not fulfilling the messianic prophecies, he also didn't have the proper lineage to be the messiah, which is that he must be in male line a descendant of David.
So also on that account your messiah is out.
beameup
New member
While you're "looking" at Daniel, here is another verse for you to "look at":
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. - Zechariah 14:9
No "land" instead of "earth" here (and elsewhere).
Since I actually posted Daniel 7:13-14, I'm bewildered why you couldn't read it.
King of "the land"
King of "all peoples, languages, nations"
King is descendant of David
King is YHWH
...shall I go on?
beameup
New member
Not possible due to the "blood curse" of Jaconiah. Maybe your god is "confused"
due to it being IMPOSSIBLE to fulfill according to your "logic". You need to do your homework.BTW, due to the fact that He was "assumed" to be Joseph's son, he was the rightful "first son" according to Jewish law, which I'm afraid you don't know.
PS: note that the 2 genealogies listed are NOT the same...
Note that God uses "her seed" [DNA] as a necessary qualifier in this prophecy. God will destroy all evil with "her seed".
It is the same word here. Aretz. Land. But in this verse it is all the land.
The reason is simple: You quoted part of the text- out of context. Read the rest of the chapter, where the vision is interpreted. The vision is not what you pretend it is.
beameup
New member
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The quoted stands alone as is and is complete. No "hidden" or "cryptic" message here.
Pretty straightforward and understandable to the educated and wise. *Perhaps not so for the uneducated and foolish.
Ben Masada
New member
Now, after posting this text, if you read Exodus 19:5,6 you would agree with me that the text is talking about Judah, the branch HaShem promised to David that would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever aka a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (I Kings 11:36)
beameup
New member
I did, obviously you didn't.
A "night" VISION (singular) was explained by Daniel in 2 verses.
Thereafter, Daniel switches to ALL the VISIONS (plural)
that were troubling him (especially of the BEASTS).
Anyone can see that. No need to make yourself look like Elia.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Still, it is plainly written there that it is the genealogy of Joseph.
So when you see written "Joseph", you read "Mary". This is of course an absurd way of using the text. It says A, but you read B.
In that way you can make the text say whatever you want, but everybody with two working brain cells will throw out your exegesis.
Some people call the genealogy in Matthew the 'legal line', but I am afraid that the words 'illegal line' would be more appropriate here. As most people probably don't know, a Jewish marriage is made up of two stages; kiddushin and nissu'in. With kiddushin the woman is legaly married to the man, and only the death of one of the partners can end the relation, or the man has to give the wife a bill of divorce. However, the marriage has not yet been consumed with intimate relations. This is the first stage. But already in this first stage, the woman belongs exclusively to her husband. If she would have sexual relations with another man, then that would be punished with death, see Deuteronomy 22:23-24; "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed (the King James here calls the first stage of marriage 'betrothed') unto an husband, and a man find her in the city and lay with her, then you shall bring them both out
unto the gate of that city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die."
The second stage of marriage, nissu'in, is the consuming of the marriage through sexual relations. These days kiddushin and nissu'in are done on the same day, but in earlier days there was one year between kiddushin and nissu'in, and in that year the newly weds kept on living with their own parents. Putting the threat of stoning on a young woman a year before she had relations with her husband is a great way to make sure that she is not pregnant of somebody else before the marriage is consumed.
Josef and Mary did kiddushin, but not yet nissu'in. Read Matthew 1:18; "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Mary was married to Joseph, (kiddushin, here called 'espoused') but the marriage was not yet consumed
("before they came together"). If in this stage the woman becomes pregnant from somebody else than the husband, than she has to be stoned to death, and when a child is born from that relation then it is an illegitimate child, and it is NOT the legal child of the one 'espoused' to the woman.
So the words 'legal line' are grotesque wrong here.
PS: note that the 2 genealogies listed are NOT the same...
I know that they are different.
Please note that in both differing genealogies it is written that they are the genealogy of JOSEPH.
Please note that there is no genealogy of Mary to be found anywhere in the Bible.
Gen 3: "Y-H-W-H God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.'"
Christianity sees in this vers a messianic prophecy, but also in this verse is no messiah to be found.
It speaks about the "seed of the woman". What is the seed of the woman? All mankind.
It speaks also about the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes.
So what is written here is that God will put enmity between men and snakes. Snakes will bit men in the legs, and men will kill snakes. That is all what is written here.
No messiah to be seen.
Only in the over-heated Christian fantasy can this be seen as a messianic prophecy.
The expression "seed of a woman" pops up regularly in the Tanach. For instance: "And Adam again knoweth his wife, and she beareth a son, and calleth his name Seth, `for God hath appointed for me another seed instead of Abel:' for Cain had slain him." Gen 4;25
Here Eve has new seed. Messianic? Of course not. "Seed" just means "offspring".
"7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain on the way to Shur.
8 And he said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? And whither wilt thou go?” And she said, “I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.”
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, “Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.”
10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, “I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.”"
Gen 16
Here we have seed of Hagar. Messianic? Of course not. This has, just like the previous verses, no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
"And they blessed Rebekah and said unto her, “Thou art our sister; be thou the mother of thousands of millions; and let thy seed possess the gate of those who hate them.”
Gen 24:60
Here we have the seed of Rebecca. Messianic? Of course not. This has no bearing on the messiah, just like Gen 3:16 has no bearing on the messiah.
"Speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, A woman when she giveth seed, and hath born a male, then she hath been unclean seven days, according to the days of separation for her sickness she is unclean;"
Lev 12;2 Youngs Literal Translation
Here we have more seed of a woman. Messianic? Of course not. This has no bearing on the messiah, just like Gen 3:16 has no bearing on the messiah.
Besides that, if you want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then we have yet another messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC.
It says here that the seed of the woman, according to Christians the messiah, will crush the head of the snake, symbol for the Satan.
And we see written in the NT that after the death of JC the Satan is going round like a roaring lion, seeking whom he can devour: " Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8
So in that case we have yet another messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC.
Why do people come up with "messianic prophecies" NOT fulfilled by JC in order to "prove" that he was the messiah?
What they do is proving he was not the messiah!
Sigh.
Earth to Beameup? Hello?
Do I need to paste the entire chapter here, including the explanation Daniel is given regarding the vision?
Maybe you don't own a Bible? Or your internet connection is poor?
beameup
New member
I believe that it is you that it says A, but you read B. You are practicing eisegesis, reading into the text from your pre-conceived notions ("don't bother me with the facts, my mind is already made up").
Nowhere in the text (3:23) does it say that "this is the genealogy of Joseph". The text says:
Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age,
-being (as was supposed) [assumed] the son of Joseph-,
the son of Heli,
[beginning the genealogy which goes all the way back to *ADAM].
*note it goes back to the source of the original sin.
As far as Gen 3:15, it makes your god look foolish to state that he makes this
frivolous prophecy concerning the mother of mankind and the father of the snakes (reptiles). Seriously? Duh?
So whose genealogy is it?
He was the son, so it was thought,
of Joseph,the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,the son of Melki,the son of Jannai..
who was the son of Heli? hmm, let's see...Ah! Joseph! How convenient that the text spells it out. And who was the son of Joseph? Ah! The text tells us- it was Jesus- but he was only 'thought of' as being Joseph's son.
It really isn't difficult.
beameup
New member
Yea, it really isn't difficult... if you read Matthew chapter 1, you will get Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's. Women simply were not mentioned "normally" in genealogies.
And Josias begat Jechoniah and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: Matt 1:11
Of course you know that the "blood curse" on Jechoniah made it IMPOSSIBLE to have the Messiah through his genealogy. So, what to do???
Clearly, Joseph was a descendant of Jeconiah, so that immediately disqualifies his BLOOD LINE to produce Messiah... at least not in the "natural" way.
Remember the "original curse"? Read Genesis 3:15. There HaShem introduces us to the concept of the "SEED OF THE WOMAN" (ie: DNA, blood descendant). That "seed" will stamp-out the "shining one", the "deceiver" who caused man to SIN.