How the Gospel Works

[Epoisses]

You are walking, talking proof that redemption is targeted and that atonement is limited. Every time you post you give proof to the fact that the energized delusion unto and upon those that do not hold the love of the truth.

And you give proof that you had a fleeting experience with God 19 years ago and since then you have regressed into a formal and dead religion. Converted people are the #1 targets of the devil so they're going to get hit with the worst deceptions of all. Perseverance in faith is still the highest quality in the eyes of Jesus.

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert,

Your response convinces me you have no real answer to the point that Scripture plainly teaches, per Our Lord's own recorded words, a particular number of persons were given to the Lord to be saved. That a number of particular persons were given, a great multitude that no man can number from among all the peoples of the world (Rev. 7:9), necessarily implies there is a number not given to the Lord by God the Father—John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9.

Explain it for us, Robert. Maybe you will say that the number of persons given to the Lord were but an amorphous collection of persons that will believe, then how do you explain your frequent claim Jesus has atoned for everyone? Clearly the verses before us teach that there is a particular number of persons given to the Lord, for whom the Lord only prays. He plainly states He is not praying for those not given to Him (John 17:9). Apparently Our Lord knows these persons for whom He is praying. Why is He not praying for everyone since you claim He has atoned for everyone?

Try actually digging into the passages offered up in response to your frequent redundant posts and offer up some explanations versus merely quoting Scripture with some winsome boldface as if you have actually explained anything. An opinion offered up without any substantive explanation obliges no one to consider your opinion, for it lacks any truth value. If you are going to hold yourself forth as a teacher, then, please, for the sake of all, teach.

AMR

Jesus claims to be the savior of the world, "I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" John 12:47.

Jesus saves the world by fulfilling God's holy law, Matthew 5:18 and atoning for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2. He did that in our name and on our behalf. This is how we are justified.

You don't believe this. Instead you believe that God is a tyrant and his Son Jesus Christ is a failure.

 

[Truster]

To believe in a limited atonement is to believe that Jesus is a failure and is not Lord. If you don't believe that Jesus is Lord you will die in your sins, John 8:24.

Only those that Messiah atoned for are granted repentance.

 

[Robert Pate]

Only those that Messiah atoned for are granted repentance.

The scripture plainly says that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also John 12:47. This means that you are without an excuse.

 

[Truster]

The scripture plainly says that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also John 12:47. This means that you are without an excuse.

You don't understand the scriptures.

 

[Robert Pate]

You don't understand the scriptures.

You cannot receive truth. How much plainer can it be?

 

[glorydaz]

Only those that Messiah atoned for are granted repentance.

That's the Calvin in you. And it's why Nang agrees.


I thought Bluster claimed he wasn't selling tulips. :think:

 

[glorydaz]

Robert,

Your response convinces me you have no real answer to the point that Scripture plainly teaches, per Our Lord's own recorded words, a particular number of persons were given to the Lord to be saved. That a number of particular persons were given, a great multitude that no man can number from among all the peoples of the world (Rev. 7:9), necessarily implies there is a number not given to the Lord by God the Father—John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9.

Explain it for us, Robert. Maybe you will say that the number of persons given to the Lord were but an amorphous collection of persons that will believe, then how do you explain your frequent claim Jesus has atoned for everyone? Clearly the verses before us teach that there is a particular number of persons given to the Lord, for whom the Lord only prays. He plainly states He is not praying for those not given to Him (John 17:9). Apparently Our Lord knows these persons for whom He is praying. Why is He not praying for everyone since you claim He has atoned for everyone?

Try actually digging into the passages offered up in response to your frequent redundant posts and offer up some explanations versus merely quoting Scripture with some winsome boldface as if you have actually explained anything. An opinion offered up without any substantive explanation obliges no one to consider your opinion, for it lacks any truth value. If you are going to hold yourself forth as a teacher, then, please, for the sake of all, teach.

AMR

That part from Revelation is speaking of those who came out of the great tribulation. It has nothing to do with being chosen for salvation.

Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

Then your quotes from John are not saying what you claim, either. Some refer to those who hear and come and some refer to the Apostles. I don't think you've proven your point at all, dear AMR.

 

[Truster]

You cannot receive truth. How much plainer can it be?

I received everything necessary to salvation as a gift. Unlike you who exercised everything by your own free will...how clever of you, not.

 

[Robert Pate]

I received everything necessary to salvation as a gift. Unlike you who exercised everything by your own free will...how clever of you, not.

If something is imposed upon you it is not a free gift, It is an imposition.

A free Gift can only be received or rejected, it cannot be earned or deserved.

We receive the free gift of salvation by faith, John 1:12.

 

[Clete]

It is important for Christians to know how they are saved. If you know and understand the Gospel you will not be drawn off into false doctrines or religions. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the guiding light and is the light that lightens every man, John 1:9.

The Gospel is best understood in the background of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is a record of man's sinfulness. From the time that a man is born until he dies he is a sinner. Isaiah brought that out when he wrote,

"We are all as an unclean thing and all of our righteousness are like filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" Isaiah 64:6.

If you don't see yourself as a sinner you will not understand the Gospel. The Gospel is between God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. We had no part in it. We are the benefactors of the Gospel. Jesus comes into the world as the new Adam and the new representative of the human race. In our name and on our behalf as our representative, Jesus offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. It was the life of Jesus that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that. When Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, we died with him, Romans 6:6.

When God accepted Jesus back into heaven all of humanity was accepted in him. This is why John wrote,

"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only but for the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47. As far as God is concerned his Son Jesus Christ has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15. Jesus now sits at the right hand of God as the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16. Does this mean that everyone is saved? No, this means that salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus has reconciled us and the world unto God.

"God was in Christ, reconciling us and the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" which is the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Its over, its finished. The work of Christ that was done on the behalf of fallen man is finished. The ball is now in humanities court. This Gospel can be yours by doing nothing more than calling on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

All that accept God's offer of reconciliation are perfect and complete "In Christ", Colossians 2:10. When Jesus returns there will be a judgment of unbelievers. All that have rejected God's great free plan of salvation will perish. Their sins will be imputed back to them and they will be condemned, Romans 4:8. To escape the judgment we must be found "In Christ". God must judge sin. If you are not "In Christ" you will perish. This is why Paul wrote,

"That I might be found in him, not having my own righteousness that is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" Philippians 3:9.

I don't see a thing in this post that I disagree with. Well done.

The heads of all the Calvinists here on TOL will explode but they'll not offer any arguments to refute your post. If they offer any arguments at all, they'll ignore your post and just present the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement as though that counts as a rebuttal.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Robert Pate]

I don't see a thing in this post that I disagree with. Well done.

The heads of all the Calvinists here on TOL will explode but they'll not offer any arguments to refute your post. If they offer any arguments at all, they'll ignore your post and just present the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement as though that counts as a rebuttal.




Resting in Him,
Clete

I am glad that you agree, not many do.

 

[Truster]

If something is imposed upon you it is not a free gift, It is an imposition.

A free Gift can only be received or rejected, it cannot be earned or deserved.

We receive the free gift of salvation by faith, John 1:12.

Your thoughts of the Almighty are not spiritual, but carnal.

 

[Robert Pate]

Your thoughts of the Almighty are not spiritual, but carnal.

God imposes salvation on no one. If he did that he would be unjust. This is why..."Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
We are saved by responding to the Gospel. No response is a response.

 

[Clete]

Your thoughts of the Almighty are not spiritual, but carnal.

What's carnal about them?

 

[Truster]

God imposes salvation on no one. If he did that he would be unjust. This is why..."Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
We are saved by responding to the Gospel. No response is a response.

The word shall is an auxiliary verb and changes the nuance of what was said. You are obviously ignorant of these grammatical facts so it's pointless me bothering with you....as usual.

 

[Robert Pate]

The word shall is an auxiliary verb and changes the nuance of what was said. You are obviously ignorant of these grammatical facts so it's pointless me bothering with you....as usual.

You are a typical Calvinist. The only way that your doctrine can make sense is to screw with the word of God.

 

[Eagles Wings]

No, Clete, heads don't explode over these countless, redundant threads.

Pate's been asked to stop.

 

[Lon]

The heads of all the Calvinists here on TOL will explode but they'll not offer any arguments to refute your post
Clete

:think: Let's see:

"We are all as an unclean thing and all of our righteousness are like filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" Isaiah 64:6.

Yep, Total Depravity/inability.

If you don't see yourself as a sinner you will not understand the Gospel. The Gospel is between God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. We had no part in it.

Yep, monergism.

We are the benefactors of the Gospel. Jesus comes into the world as the new Adam and the new representative of the human race. In our name and on our behalf as our representative, Jesus offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his Holy Law. It was the life of Jesus that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that. When Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, we died with him, Romans 6:6.

Also monergism "...and this not of yourselves..." Ephesians 2:8,9

When God accepted Jesus back into heaven all of humanity was accepted in him. This is why John wrote,

"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only but for the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47. As far as God is concerned his Son Jesus Christ has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15. Jesus now sits at the right hand of God as the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16. Does this mean that everyone is saved? No, this means that salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus has reconciled us and the world unto God.

Even you and Pate believe in a limitation here, else it becomes universalism and no need for the gospel: "Good news for all!"
Whatever way you eschew universalism, both of you, you are in good company with every Calvinist by the explanation. :e4e:

"God was in Christ, reconciling us and the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" which is the Gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Its over, its finished. The work of Christ that was done on the behalf of fallen man is finished. The ball is now in humanities court. This Gospel can be yours by doing nothing more than calling on Christ to save you, Romans 10:13.

Uh Oh, Both you and Pate just crossed the :nono: You both suddenly have something to do with your own salvations
I really hope you'll contemplate this rather than a knee-jerk. I'm brief here, but you both need to offer a substantial response and CLEARLY explain how this is not you saving yourself. Pate literally said "the ball is in your court." That literally means, you save yourself by response. Ephesians 2:8,9 "...this NOT of yourselves..." John 15:16,19

All that accept God's offer of reconciliation are perfect and complete "In Christ", Colossians 2:10. When Jesus returns there will be a judgment of unbelievers. All that have rejected God's great free plan of salvation will perish. Their sins will be imputed back to them and they will be condemned, Romans 4:8. To escape the judgment we must be found "In Christ". God must judge sin. If you are not "In Christ" you will perish. This is why Paul wrote,

"That I might be found in him, not having my own righteousness that is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" Philippians 3:9.

John 13:18 Frankly, to both of you, your faith is 'less' Jesus than mine. The ball was never in 'my' court. The Lord Jesus Christ didn't leave me alone and give me the ball and leave the court. :nono: I realize it is a bold accusation, but by your language and embrace here, you both are emphasizing what is flat out and plainly wrong and shocking, especially by you Clete, who says he embraces a 'relational' God per Open Theism. Starkly, He looks 'less' relational by your angst against Calvinism where our salvation is known and catered to by God. He will save all that can be saved, else both of you are arbitrary and illogical in your theology understanding and inconsistent. If God 'can' save all, it would be done. Salvation is a specific thing and it does a specific work: It saves some, clearly given in the scriptures.

* Please don't see an overt 'challenge' between me and either of you. We need to wrestle ourselves with scriptures and our need is to wrestle with our God, not one another. I will take your scriptural considerations the same way. We each stand or fall before our Maker, I simply want us to be responsible for our Theology with and before Him and so, it is my endeavor to be of service, not come between you and Him. In Him -Lon

 

[Truster]

You are a typical Calvinist. The only way that your doctrine can make sense is to screw with the word of God.

Scripture can only mean what it first meant. Much has been lost in translation. You constantly use words in a context that proves you have no understanding. When you don't understand what I post you pull Calvin out of a hat and throw your toys out of the pram.