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ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
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The Tree of Life is the complete "Mind of God" and I didn't need a commentary to have that explained to me..
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I get this question from time to time and it always bothers me a little. The reason it bothers me is because, in the context of our conversation, the only thing this question could mean is that you are unable to see any answer to that question without seeing the law, even if you don't want to call it that. Let me explain what I mean...
If I were to answer that to love God means to believe His word and to do rightly. Your response would be to say that there is no practical difference between my doctrine and yours. You'd quote John 14:15 and ask how then is what Paul taught any different than what Jesus taught. We would then be at square one and you could reread the whole conversation in answer to that question.
However, despite my previous experiences with this question, I do believe that you're asking the question honestly and so let me give as straight forward an answer as I know how to give....
To love God is like loving anyone else. Asking what it means to love God sounds to me like asking what it means to love your parents or spouse or brother or best friend. It means that God is dear to you, that you value Him and your relationship with Him. And if loved rightly, He isn't simply dear to you, He is your dearest, the One you value above all others.
This, you might think, means that you value righteousness and justice, for to be righteous is to be like God. If you are like the one you love, you'll love yourself and self-esteem is what happiness is.
And you'd be right but Paul teaches us that the doing of it is not achievable....
I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7)
What then are we to do? We love God and want to do rightly but find that we cannot. Are we then doomed to live out this life in frustration, poor self-esteem and defeat? Certainly not! For if we love God then we trust what He says and He has said that we are righteous, in spite of what we do!
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can it be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8)
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2)
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8)
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2)
Resting in Him,
Clete
Cross Reference
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Don't you know that "Proxy" is not a candy bar or soda pop. You laughing because somebody told you it was?
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
turbosixx
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There is a lot here and I tried to slim it down. If I missed something you really wanted me to address let me know and I will be glad to. I think my previous questions in post #834 should bring to light what I think your view misses.
I totally agree up to this point.
I disagree with the choice. It’s not God or understanding but God’s will or my will. Who do I want to please.
I can see your paradigm and it’s not looking at the context. Paul is talking to Christians in difficult situations such as a believer being married to a non-believer. He then includes other situations and basically says it doesn’t matter the situation you were in when you were called but he does tell us what does matter.
1 Cor.7:18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it;
Stay circumcised/uncircumcised because it mean nothing.
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The works Paul is talking about here is winning souls. This is a work and I would argue the most important work but it’s not like other works in righteousness and works of the flesh.
The foundation he is laying is salvation through Christ. Do the 12 preach salvation through someone else? Do the 12 preach one must earn salvation?
I totally agree up to this point.
I disagree with the choice. It’s not God or understanding but God’s will or my will. Who do I want to please.
For not needing any instructions Paul sure gives us a lot of them as well as the other books.
I can see your paradigm and it’s not looking at the context. Paul is talking to Christians in difficult situations such as a believer being married to a non-believer. He then includes other situations and basically says it doesn’t matter the situation you were in when you were called but he does tell us what does matter.
1 Cor.7:18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it;
Stay circumcised/uncircumcised because it mean nothing.
Look at Gal. 2, if Paul wasn’t preaching the same gospel, then why would the Holy Spirit tell him to go to Jerusalem and tell the apostles the gospel he was preaching for fear that he had “run in vain”? Compare notes. Then after he tells them, they are in agreement and give him the “right hand of fellowship”. If he was teaching them something different, there would be some discussion about the differences. It’s the same gospel just harvesting different fields.
Please tell me how receiving the forgiveness of sins through Christ is not grace.
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The works Paul is talking about here is winning souls. This is a work and I would argue the most important work but it’s not like other works in righteousness and works of the flesh.
The foundation he is laying is salvation through Christ. Do the 12 preach salvation through someone else? Do the 12 preach one must earn salvation?
Interplanner
Well-known member
If you don't realized that Christ produced the very thing Paul preached, you don't know your NT. You're hung up on words, and not seeing the forest for the trees.
Christ is totally a message of grace, Jn. 1. Or Lk 7: those forgiven much love much! The Gospel forgives much!
And technically on the point of whether Paul was around for Christ, you must not realize what he is saying 2 Cor 5. He's saying that he did know about Christ in the ordinary sense, like all people in Judea. But Jesus was taken to be one of many rabbis. Paul didn't realize what Christ was saying all along: that God was in Christ reconciling the sin-debt of mankind!!!
So this whole question is really a matter of realizing that Paul thought Christ had some completely different message from the apostles, and then his realizing it was properly summed up by justification by Christ alone.
turbosixx
New member
I think I have a better understanding of how you view the law of love. I agree, if I do something begrudgingly because God wants me to, that’s not loving God. That’s how the old law worked. A man could lust in his heart for a woman but if he didn’t commit the act he didn’t break the law. Christ changed that. It’s not just our actions anymore, it’s of the heart. That being said, I don’t see the heart as all there is to it. The actions that flow from the heart reveal the heart.
This is the root of my understanding and it’s in agreement with what Jesus himself taught. It’s about the walk and not the talk.
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
Loving God and loving Jesus isn’t about mental understanding, its love that causes action. What does the bible tell us about love?
1 Cor. 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love causes action. I would suggest if there is no action, there isn't really love.
Our actions of love must be according to God’s will and no other. Paul loves God and when he was persecuting Christians he was acting on that love. He had zeal but not according to knowledge. We must know the will of the Lord to please him, to understand how to walk.
Eph. 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret…..
15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
turbosixx
New member
Wow, I must have really botched that up. What did I say to cause you to think that Christ isn’t about grace?
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turbosixx
New member
You have scripture to support that "believing what he says" is love?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Sorry TurboSix but I think I must have been responding to whom you responded, and I can't find who that is now.
turbosixx
New member
NP. I worry that my thoughts aren't coming across as intended and so I freaked when I saw your post. I know I’m not the sharpest knife.
You need to find God.
That is it is an achievable experience.
God is love, not some expression of your own.
LA
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
LALaw stumps us every time, Mayor.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
You need to find God, john w.
You need to find some common sense.
You need to find some logic and reason.
You need to find the Grace of God.
You need to find a good sense of humor.
You need to find a non-aggressive friendly attitude.
You need to find a good anger management class.
You need to find a way to get along with your fellow posters.
You need to find a way to raise your reputation on TOL.
You need to find a friendly demeanor.
You need to find a way to be kind and gracious.
You need to find a way to be civil.
You need to find a way to stop making death predictions about fellow posters.
ETC.
Well, musty, the Laaawd spoke to me recently, and this is what he told me:"John W, I am raising warriors, such as you, Mayor STP, and musty, who will bring in the new rain, as my anointing brings in the kingdom, as you are my David's, who will slew the Goliath's of the world!!!!!!!!!!'
Give Gaaaawd a shout of puhhhhhraizzzze!!!!!!!!