Jamie Gigliotti
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I believe my wife exists, but if I don't trust her and open my heart to her we don't have real relationship.
Do you think God wants just your cerebral belief? Or your heart and soul trust?
ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
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Do you think God wants just your cerebral belief? Or your heart and soul trust?
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Don't make me laugh. He falls short as you do. Incomplete in his thinking that hinders his connecting the dots.
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"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister"
Colossians 1:23 (KJV)
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled" 'in the gospel that came before me that Jesus preached unto His Disciples for which I am made a minister as they are.'
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Why don't you give your input if you think I am wrong? What is he saying you believe I don't understand?
I too hold, without qualification nor any need to clarify, that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Indeed, on the previous page of the bible from where Paul said this to Timothy, he wrote, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Thus, because I rightly divide the scripture it is far more profitable to me than it ever be for you.
Okay fine. Hold to it. Just don't make the mindless error that suggests that what you believe is the truth based on the fact that you believe it, nor the error that assumes that you've refuted the arguments presented in this thread.
If you want to continue in your belief because what I've said hasn't convinced you, then I have no problem with that so long as its not born out of intellectual laziness or dishonesty. In other words, you have to follow whatever it is that your own mind is telling you is the truth. I am fully persuaded that what I believe is the truth, but I do not merely believe it in some mindless way. I don't believe this stuff because my parents did (they didn't) nor because the church I attend teaches it (it doesn't). I believe it because of all the doctrinal systems I have ever been exposed to, it's supporting arguments are by far the most logically sound and theologically comprehensive, while at the same time, so simple and clear that it can be nut-shelled down to a single sentence that any third grader can understand.
But my conviction cannot be a substitute for yours (nor anyone else's). To accept an argument without the full conviction of your own mind is just as intellectually lazy and/or dishonest as the rejecting my arguments without refutation would be. Integrity does not consist of loyalty to one’s subjective whims, but of loyalty to rational principles.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Why???!!
Your mind and heart are not so separate as your question would suggest. Not that they are the same thing but simply that they are connected and that consistent compartmentalization cannot be maintained.
To say in your mind that you believe something that you don't open your heart too, as you put it, is simply to lie to yourself and to fake your own consciousness. Generally speaking, your heart will follow the conviction of your mind as will your body. To the extent it won't for the Christian is what we refer to as "the flesh". Paul spoke to this explicitly and makes it clear that the battle is won or lost IN YOUR MIND - not your heart.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
It is not our hearts we should be trusting (Jeremiah 17:9) but rather the conviction of our minds as Paul goes on to say in Romans 8...
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Lastly, getting back to your original point, I said...
"To say I believe is to connect to Him Spiritually. (Yes, I noticed the capital 'S'.)
You cannot do one without the other, unless you're just lying to begin with."
You cannot do one without the other, unless you're just lying to begin with."
This is exactly what Paul teaches in Romans 10...
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And so, I say again, you cannot do one without the other, unless you're just lying to begin with.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Because if I am reading someone else's mail, how does it profit me to act as though it was written to me?
Is it not more profitable to me if I read it in its intended context and thereby learn something about both the author and the recipient, not to mention the God they both serve?
Its just exactly the same thing you do with the whole of the Old Testament. How much more profitable is the Old Testament to you than it is to those who make the error of believing that the Old Testament applies directly to them and that we should therefore observe the Feasts and worship on the Sabbath?
It isn't that you don't divide the word of truth its that you divide it differently than I do. The very question that this thread has sought to answer is not whether the word aught to be divided but rather which of us is dividing it rightly.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Does this not apply to you:
"When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?"
Ezekiel 18:26-29 (ESV)
Right Divider
Body part
Perverter!
You TRY to make it say what YOU think that it should say, but that's NOT what is ACTUALLY says.
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Well, lets not make a mystery out of it or a guessing game. If you know what it 'really' sez, get with it.
Well the answer is yes and no. It depends on what you mean by the question.
Everyone has sinned against God. The passage you quote from is teaching that God is only going to punish people for their own sin, not the sins of their father (including Adam, by the way).
So, without Christ, yes, it applies because while God was talking to Israel, the principles of justice are not unique to Israel.
But I am not without Christ and so from the most important perspective, especially considering the context in which you've asked the question, this does not apply to me any longer.
I am hidden in Christ! Can Christ turn away from His righteousness?!
Certainly not! For He is faithful even when I am not.
2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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My question is what I asked.
Do accept the idea that no man is nor can be righteous without Christ?
WonderfulLordJesus
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Paul's message is not different. Being the apostle to the Gentiles, his intended audience is different, in most of his letters, and also some mysteries the Lord clarified through Paul, but Paul's teachings are in keeping with and an expansion of the same teachings of the Lord Jesus, those things universal the Lord taught.
One problem people have is not differentiating the audience sometimes, like Matthew 24 being primarily teaching to a Jewish audience down the ages, about the time of Jacob's trouble. Also, Christ often spoke to Jews in Jewish terms the Gentile is likely oblivious to, would freely use references a Jew may understand He may not employ to a Gentile audience. But it is all the same gospel. All scripture is, as a matter of fact, "God breathed" by the Holy Spirit, the teachings of Paul the teachings of God, of Jesus Christ, by the Spirit of Christ. Of course, to say the teachings of Christ are different from the teachings of Christ makes no sense, nor is truth in scripture ever contradictory. Again, a most important aspect of scripture nuances is the question, "Who is the audience of the teaching?"
There are not multiple gospels, as some claim, rather truth expanded upon by Paul's ministry, as surely as scripture is an ongoing, unfolding revelation of God's dealings with Israel, first, then all mankind, through the gospel of the Lord Jesus.
One problem people have is not differentiating the audience sometimes, like Matthew 24 being primarily teaching to a Jewish audience down the ages, about the time of Jacob's trouble. Also, Christ often spoke to Jews in Jewish terms the Gentile is likely oblivious to, would freely use references a Jew may understand He may not employ to a Gentile audience. But it is all the same gospel. All scripture is, as a matter of fact, "God breathed" by the Holy Spirit, the teachings of Paul the teachings of God, of Jesus Christ, by the Spirit of Christ. Of course, to say the teachings of Christ are different from the teachings of Christ makes no sense, nor is truth in scripture ever contradictory. Again, a most important aspect of scripture nuances is the question, "Who is the audience of the teaching?"
There are not multiple gospels, as some claim, rather truth expanded upon by Paul's ministry, as surely as scripture is an ongoing, unfolding revelation of God's dealings with Israel, first, then all mankind, through the gospel of the Lord Jesus.
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It really isn't complicated for the thinking student of the Bible to figure out, is it? One has to have an untoward agenda to believe it to be otherwise.
musterion
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Finish Paul's thought there...IF ye continue in the faith...WHAT?
What does the context indicate was his point in bringing it up?
The power of a paradigm is truly astounding. You see in this verse something that is just simply not there. You read it as though it was saying the same thing as 2 Peter but it just isn't.
Read the book of Colossians without the chapter breaks and added headings that most bibles insert. Just read it like its one single letter written in one sitting. Read as the Colossians read it.
The verse you quote is still in the introduction. Paul hasn't even gotten to the point of his letter by this point yet. He gets to it by the end of chapter 2. He's telling the Colossians not to rely on the law! Which is no surprise because that's the theme of Paul's whole ministry. He isn't talking about their salvation but about their daily Christian walk, in this life.
Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Right Divider
Body part
Do you ever, and I mean EVER, consider the CONTEXT of the scripture that you post?
How do YOU think that it applies to you?
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Context == encouragement; encouragement with the reminder of the danger for poor performance in steadfastness.