How I interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Nihilo]

... New Advent ...

Understand, that whatever Catholic sources that there are, and there are plenty, they all point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and in no way can something other than the Catechism be taken as authoritative over the Catechism; as I explained (and this is found within the Catechism itself), it is the teacher's edition. Whatever New Advent or the Catholic Encyclopedia may say, can always be checked against the teacher's edition, and as I also said, Protestants with good hermeneutics are just as capable of interpreting the Catechism as even Catholic churchmen. They've given all their secrets away. OneRepublic

 

[Nihilo]

Jerry, also I should add, that I cannot currently see how, in the light of Scripture and Church teaching, how a true, cold-blooded murderer could possibly be a Christian. Murderers have become Christians, but I cannot see how anyone justly convicted of first degree murder could be a true Christian, when they so murdered.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Church teaches this.

So Rome teaches that Christians who already possess eternal life can never perish? Rome actually believes that all who have been given eternal life shall never perish?

 

[Nihilo]

So Rome teaches that Christians who already possess eternal life can never perish? Rome actually believes that all who have been given eternal life shall never perish?

Jerry I've given you my answer. Because I don't believe that Christians can ever be eternally guilty of our grave moral trespasses, for the reasons I gave above, in my prior direct response to your previous post, the Church are Romans 4:8 (KJV).

 

[Lon]

Jerry, also I should add, that I cannot currently see how, in the light of Scripture and Church teaching, how a true, cold-blooded murderer could possibly be a Christian. Murderers have become Christians, but I cannot see how anyone justly convicted of first degree murder could be a true Christian, when they so murdered.

If you really want feedback, only on this, start a thread. "Can a Christian be a Murder?" Or if you want a lot of attention: "A Christian Cannot Murder Or He Isn't a Christian." If you want a lot of attention, make the title a bit outrageous "If you build it, they will come." -Lon

 

[Nihilo]

If you really want feedback, only on this, start a thread. "Can a Christian be a Murder?" Or if you want a lot of attention: "A Christian Cannot Murder Or He Isn't a Christian." If you want a lot of attention, make the title a bit outrageous "If you build it, they will come." -Lon

Meh. I just want to clarify it as I explain myself. 1st John uniquely corroborates Paul's epistles in this matter of murder, where Paul lists murder as just one of the deeds of the flesh that voids eternal inheritance (e.g., Gal5:21KJV), while John specifically mentions murder in, as you've already shared, 1st John 3:15 (KJV), "no murderer hath eternal life." Thank you for the tip though.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If a Christian could commit grave matter "with full knowledge and deliberate consent," then yes, but as I explained, I do not believe that Christians can do this.
The Church teaches this.

Where does Rome teach that a Christian cannot commit a mortal sin?

Here is what Rome says about this subject:

"Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1861).​

According to Rome if a Christian commits a mortal sin then they will be deprived of sanctifying grace and if they don't repent they can indeed be excluded from Christ's kingdom.

That can only mean that the Christian who already possesses eternal life can perish even though the Lord Jesus says that they cannot.

 

[Nihilo]

Where does Rome teach that a Christian cannot commit a mortal sin?

Here is what Rome says about this subject:
"Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1861).


According to Rome if a Christian commits a mortal sin then they will be deprived of sanctifying grace and if they don't repent they can indeed be excluded from Christ's kingdom.

That can only mean that the Christian who already possesses eternal life can perish even though the Lord Jesus says that they cannot.

Right.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Right.

So you agree that Rome teaches that Christian who already possess eternal life can perish even though the Lord Jesus said that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish?

 

[Nihilo]

So you agree that Rome teaches that Christian who already possess eternal life can perish even though the Lord Jesus said that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish?

I agreed with your post before,

According to Rome if a Christian commits a mortal sin then they will be deprived of sanctifying grace and if they don't repent they can indeed be excluded from Christ's kingdom.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I agreed with your post before,

Earlier you said:

If a Christian could commit grave matter "with full knowledge and deliberate consent," then yes, but as I explained, I do not believe that Christians can do this.
The Church teaches this.

Where does Rome teach that Christians cannot commit mortal sins?

 

[Nihilo]

Where does Rome teach that Christians cannot commit mortal sins?

I didn't say that the Catholic Church explicitly teaches this, because she doesn't explicitly teach this. But I personally believe it is true and not against her teaching, based upon the room available between her infallible lines.

The Church also doesn't teach that Christians do commit mortal sins either, but that it is a logical possibility, because of our free will.

I just don't think that it's ever happened. That's my view, and I base it on what I said in that same post, which I again quote for you.

Spoiler

Here are some of the conditions that "diminish," "attenuate," or "nullify" all together, the guilt otherwise deserved by the commission of a grave moral offense, such as murder or adultery, according to the Catholic Church's infallible teaching of the Christian faith :

"...ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors..."

"...Unintentional ignorance..."

"...The promptings of feelings and passions..."

"...external pressures or pathological disorders..."

"...destitution, blackmail, or social pressure..."

The presence of any of these, or conditions like them, according to the supreme pastor of the Catholic Church, and so therefore infallibly, render, for the Christian, an otherwise mortal sin venial, because it makes the immoral choice without "full knowledge and deliberate consent."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I didn't say that the Catholic Church explicitly teaches this, because she doesn't explicitly teach this. But I personally believe it is true and not against her teaching, based upon the room available between her infallible lines.

Here is what Rome teaches:

"Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society" (CCC #2272).​

Does this not speak of a Christian who incurs excommunication latae sententiae?

If the Christian who got the abortion does not repent then can she possibly be saved?

 

[Nihilo]

Here is what Rome teaches:

"Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society" (CCC #2272).
​

Does this not speak of a Christian who incurs excommunication latae sententiae?

If the Christian who got the abortion does not repent then can she possibly be saved?

Hmm. Yes, the Catholic Church has left zero room for disagreement on the moral matter as to whether abortion is a grave, moral, offense, and so therefore, if a pregnant lady, or a nurse or doctor, volunteers for an abortion, "with full knowledge and deliberate consent," with none of the "attentuating," "diminishing," or "nullifying" things---nor anything like them---present, then they are guilty of mortal sin. (The Church doesn't say it this way, but they would quote-unquote not be Christians anymore---Protestant-to-Protestant---if they "with full knowledge and deliberate consent" voluntarily cooperates in an abortion.) Abortion is wrong, plain and simple? The Church even asks and answers the question How wrong? Very. Grave matter wrong, mortal or fatal sin wrong, a trespass deserving of the death penalty wrong. Very immoral.

"...ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors..."

"...Unintentional ignorance..."

"...The promptings of feelings and passions..."

"...external pressures or pathological disorders..."

"...destitution, blackmail, or social pressure..."

The presence of any of these, or conditions like them, according to the supreme pastor of the Catholic Church, and so therefore infallibly, render, for the Christian, an otherwise mortal sin venial, because it makes the immoral choice without "full knowledge and deliberate consent."

On a personal note.
It is immoral for me to not be Catholic, but I want to be received by the Catholic Church together as part of my whole family, including my immediate family with my children, plus parents, siblings, etc.---I want to have a grand party, where we all are received together on some future Easter. (New Catholics are received Easter Eve, Easter vigil, every year. Eve of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus from the dead on the third day, Easter is the third day.)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hmm. Yes, the Catholic Church has left zero room for disagreement on the moral matter as to whether abortion is a grave, moral, offense, and so therefore, if a pregnant lady, or a nurse or doctor, volunteers for an abortion, "with full knowledge and deliberate consent," with none of the "attentuating," "diminishing," or "nullifying" things---nor anything like them---present, then they are guilty of mortal sin.

Since those who do these things incurs excommunication from the church at Rome does that not mean that it is entirely possible that these people who were once saved could end up in hell?

On a personal note.
It is immoral for me to not be Catholic...

You are following the teaching of Rome which is obviously full of error. Rome teaches this:

"Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word" (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1213).​

According to Rome no one is saved until they are baptized with water. However, according to the Lord Jesus when a person believes he receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

 

[Nihilo]

Since those who do these things incurs excommunication from the church at Rome does that not mean that it is entirely possible that these people who were once saved could end up in hell?

Yes, IF. The IF refers to our conversation prior to this above.

You are following the teaching of Rome

Yes, in matters of faith and morals, and it is immoral to not be Catholic.

which is obviously full of error.

I disagree completely.

Rome teaches this:

"Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word" (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1213).​

According to Rome no one is saved until they are baptized with water.

There's a whole section of texts in the Catechism explaining that actual water baptism is the regular means of becoming a member of the Church, and that God is not limited in any way by His sacraments, but that the sacraments are the regular means to convey His grace to His Church. There's a variety of particular examples in the Catechism showing that actual water baptism is not necessary to become a Christian.

However, according to the Lord Jesus when a person believes he receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

The Catholic Church teaches this, and the Lord Jesus also taught water baptism.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

'Just that the Lord taught water baptism. :idunno:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There's a variety of particular examples in the Catechism showing that actual water baptism is not necessary to become a Christian.

Would you mind giving me some of those examples.

Rome teaches that water baptism is "the gateway to life in the Spirit" but the Lord Jesus says that it is His words which bring spiritual life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Once a person believes he receives spiritual life, as witnessed by the words of John here:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

So at the time when a person believes he receives spiritual life. Since water baptism follows believing then it is obvious that people receive spiritual life before a drop of water touches them.

 

[Nihilo]

Would you mind giving me some of those examples.

Sure.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#1257

Rome teaches that water baptism is "the gateway to life in the Spirit" but the Lord Jesus says that it is His words which bring spiritual life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Once a person believes he receives spiritual life, as witnessed by the words of John here:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

So at the time when a person believes he receives spiritual life. Since water baptism follows believing then it is obvious that people receive spiritual life before a drop of water touches them.

Rome sticks very closely to Scripture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Rome sticks very closely to Scripture.

I don't see how you can say that. Rome teaches that water baptism in the gateway to spiritual life but the Lord Jesus says that his words are spirit and they are life:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

We also know that the gospel comes in power and in the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).​

At the time when a person believes he is made spiritually alive. But according to Rome no one is made spiritually alive until they believe and are baptized with water. That idea is directly contradicted by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The very moment when a person believes he is passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

So the idea that water baptism is the gateway to spiritual life is directly contradicted by the words of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Nihilo]

the idea that water baptism is the gateway to spiritual life is directly contradicted by the words of the Lord Jesus.

And the Lord Jesus taught water baptism.