Honest struggles on God’s omniscience.

Bright Raven

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Ok, so if it's heretical to believe God can change His mind, then why are there so many examples of God changing His mind in the Bible?
From Gotquestions.org

Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Similarly, James 1:17 tells us, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Based on these verses, no, God does not change. God is unchanging and unchangeable. He is also all-wise. So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.
 

JudgeRightly

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Open theism is not smart. It takes away from the Omniscience of God.

Open Theists do not believe this. If I am correct Open Theists believe in partial Omnicience.

No, this is the standard settled-view caricature.

Open theists do not believe in “partial omniscience.” We believe God knows everything that exists to be known. The dispute is whether future free choices already exist as settled facts before they are made.

You are assuming they do, then accusing open theists of denying omniscience because we reject your assumption.

That is not an argument. That is question-begging with a heresy label stapled to it.

Yes, Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power. His understanding is infinite.

Amen. His understanding is infinite.

Now where does that verse say God has exhaustive definite foreknowledge of every future free choice?

It doesn’t.

Psalm 147:5 says God’s understanding is infinite. It does not say the future is exhaustively settled, nor that every future human choice already exists as a knowable fact.

Open theism is considered a serious heresy or dangerous false teaching by many traditional evangelical theologians because it denies that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of future free-will decisions. While proponents argue it is a biblically based view that protects human freedom, critics view it as a denial of orthodox omniscience.

“Many theologians call it heresy” is not an argument. It is theological peer pressure.

And if heresy labels settle the matter, then hard Calvinism has a problem too. Long before Calvin, the Second Council of Orange rejected the idea that anyone is foreordained to evil by God, saying:

Second Council of Orange, A.D. 529

We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.



So are we settling this by competing heresy labels, or by Scripture?

Because if Scripture is the standard, “some theologians call this dangerous” moves the ball exactly nowhere.

God does things His way.

Isaiah 55: 8-9

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Yes, God’s ways are higher than ours.

Higher, not lower.

Isaiah 55 is not a license to make God appear unjust and then hide behind “mystery.” In context, God is calling the wicked to forsake his way, return to the Lord, and receive mercy. The point is that God is more merciful, more righteous, and more ready to pardon than man is.

So if your theology makes God render men’s wickedness and damnation certain, then punish them for what they could never ultimately avoid, Isaiah 55 is not helping you.

That is not higher justice. That is lower.

God’s ways are above ours because He is better than us, not because He operates by a morality that would be evil if anyone else did it.

From Gotquestions.org

Malachi 3:6 declares, “I the LORD do not change...” ... So He cannot “change His mind” in the sense of realizing a mistake, backtracking, and trying a new tack.

This is another category error.

No open theist says God changes in His character, holiness, righteousness, wisdom, love, faithfulness, or moral nature.

The question is whether God can change His stated course of action in response to man.

And Scripture repeatedly says He does.

God said He would destroy Nineveh. Nineveh repented, and God did not do what He said He would do.

God told Hezekiah, “You shall die, and not live.” Hezekiah prayed, and God added fifteen years.

God said He would destroy Israel and make a nation from Moses. Moses interceded, and God relented.

God regretted making Saul king.

God regretted making man before the flood.

Jeremiah 18 gives the principle: if God announces judgment and the nation repents, He will relent; if He announces blessing and the nation turns evil, He will relent of the good.

So quoting “God does not change” does not erase every passage where God relents, regrets, responds, tests, warns, and changes His stated course of action.

God does not change morally. But He does change how He deals with men when men change.

That is not a defect in God. That is the behavior of a righteous and relational God.

And even the GotQuestions quote quietly admits the point by adding “in the sense of realizing a mistake.”

Fine. God does not change His mind because He made a mistake. But open theists are not claiming He does.

We are saying God genuinely responds to repentance, rebellion, prayer, and intercession.

So the issue remains:

If it is heretical to believe God can change His mind, why does Scripture repeatedly say that He does?

And if your theology has to explain those passages away every time they appear, maybe the problem is not open theism.

Maybe the problem is the settled-view tradition you are trying to protect.
 

JudgeRightly

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@JudgeRightly, maybe I should have asked “What does omniscient mean?”

If some future is not yet knowable, are you saying God doesn’t know? How would that answer objections that it makes God ignorant, or that He didn’t prevent something because it wasn’t known?

Omniscience means that God knows everything that exists to be known.

So no, I am not saying God is ignorant. I am saying that a future free choice is not yet a settled fact before it is made.

There is a difference between:

“I do not know the answer,”

and

“There is not yet an answer to know.”

For example, if I ask, “What did you freely choose to eat for breakfast tomorrow?” there is not yet a settled fact of the matter, because you have not made that choice yet.

Once you make the choice, God knows it perfectly.

Before you make the choice, God knows you perfectly. He knows your character, your habits, your desires, your circumstances, your temptations, your options, your intentions, and what He Himself will do. But if the choice is genuinely open, then it is not yet a settled fact.

That is not a limit on God’s knowledge. It is a statement about the nature of reality.

God does not fail to know the settled future. The future is not exhaustively settled.

As for the objection, “Then why didn’t God prevent it?”, that question exists under the settled view too, and arguably becomes harder.

If God already knew with absolute certainty that a particular person would commit a particular evil act, and He still created that person and actualized that world, then the same objection remains:

Why didn’t He prevent it?

Open theism does not create that problem. It removes the added burden of saying God knowingly created a world in which every evil act was already a settled certainty before anyone existed.

God can know risks without ordaining outcomes. He can know possibilities without treating them as certainties. He can warn, intervene, restrain, judge, forgive, and redeem. But Scripture does not require us to believe every future evil was already an eternally known certainty before creation.

So omniscience does not mean “God knows as settled what is not settled.”

It means God knows reality perfectly as it is.
 

Bright Raven

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Omniscience means that God knows everything that exists to be known.

So no, I am not saying God is ignorant. I am saying that a future free choice is not yet a settled fact before it is made.

There is a difference between:

“I do not know the answer,”

and

“There is not yet an answer to know.”

For example, if I ask, “What did you freely choose to eat for breakfast tomorrow?” there is not yet a settled fact of the matter, because you have not made that choice yet.

Once you make the choice, God knows it perfectly.

Before you make the choice, God knows you perfectly. He knows your character, your habits, your desires, your circumstances, your temptations, your options, your intentions, and what He Himself will do. But if the choice is genuinely open, then it is not yet a settled fact.

That is not a limit on God’s knowledge. It is a statement about the nature of reality.

God does not fail to know the settled future. The future is not exhaustively settled.

As for the objection, “Then why didn’t God prevent it?”, that question exists under the settled view too, and arguably becomes harder.

If God already knew with absolute certainty that a particular person would commit a particular evil act, and He still created that person and actualized that world, then the same objection remains:

Why didn’t He prevent it?

Open theism does not create that problem. It removes the added burden of saying God knowingly created a world in which every evil act was already a settled certainty before anyone existed.

God can know risks without ordaining outcomes. He can know possibilities without treating them as certainties. He can warn, intervene, restrain, judge, forgive, and redeem. But Scripture does not require us to believe every future evil was already an eternally known certainty before creation.

So omniscience does not mean “God knows as settled what is not settled.”

It means God knows reality perfectly as it is.
Define Omniscience
 

VladtheDestroyer

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Numbers 23:19 is clear: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?”
Numbers 23:19 is ultimately referring to God blessing Israel so that "A scepter shall arise from Jacob". Balak wanted God to curse Israel instead and was unable to change His mind, as Balaam said ", “Even if Balak gave me all the silver and gold in his palace, I could not do anything great or small to go beyond the command of the Lord my God."

Yes, God did not change His mind about that. Nobody here thinks that He did.

I'm asking you about all of the times God does change His mind. Are you just going to pretend they never happened or what?
 

Bright Raven

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Numbers 23:19 is ultimately referring to God blessing Israel so that "A scepter shall arise from Jacob". Balak wanted God to curse Israel instead and was unable to change His mind, as Balaam said ", “Even if Balak gave me all the silver and gold in his palace, I could not do anything great or small to go beyond the command of the Lord my God."

Yes, God did not change His mind about that. Nobody here thinks that He did.

I'm asking you about all of the times God does change His mind. Are you just going to pretend they never happened or what?
Examples please.
 

Clete

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Then why does God change his plans so often in the Bible? Why does He have to plan anything at all if He already knows everything everyone is going to do?

Why did God design us with such a complex peripheral system? A visual system that detects single photons and converts them into an electro-chemical data stream that must be processed in order for my spirit to "see" the outside world? What good have my eyes done me if God has already known since before I was born whether or not I would be saved? What good are my own eyes if they can't prevent me from getting hit and killed by a bus tomorrow, if that's what God already knows will happen?
Excellent questions all, but they won't move him an inch. His belief in God is not rational, it is emotional. Indeed, he very likely believes that his willingness to believe the irrational is what it means to be pious and that the act of turning off one's mind is faith itself. No argument can persuade a mind in such a condition. Plain reason won't convince him and the bible won't convince him either.
 

Bright Raven

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Excellent questions all, but they won't move him an inch. His belief in God is not rational, it is emotional. Indeed, he very likely believes that his willingness to believe the irrational is what it means to be pious and that the act of turning off one's mind is faith itself. No argument can persuade a mind in such a condition. Plain reason won't convince him and the bible won't convince him either.
Who are you speaking of?
So you are saying that traditional omniscience is unbiblical?
Open theism is a system of thought that attempts to deal with the apparent conflict between two seeming truths: the free will of man and the foreknowledge of God. Open theism argues that in order for man to be truly free, God cannot know the future because if God knows the future, it has already been determined, which means that man cannot make truly free (uninfluenced) choices. But the Bible presents a different picture. Open theism ultimately fails because it tries to limit God’s knowledge based on human reasoning.

The Bible reveals that God’s knowledge is perfect (Psalm 139:1–6; Psalm 147:5) and that His plans are certain (Isaiah 46:9–10; Psalm 33:11). He is sovereign (Job 42:2; Proverbs 19:21) and omniscient (Matthew 26:34; John 2:24–25). At the same time, human freedom is real, but it operates within God’s overarching plan (Acts 2:23; Philippians 2:12–13). “Changes” in God’s plans are not because He did not know what would happen or that He was not sovereign; rather, He fits human decisions into His eternal design (Genesis 6:6; Exodus 32:9—13; 1 Samuel 15:29; Jeremiah 18:7—10). Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are not opposed. God weaves our choices into His perfect plan, demonstrating that true freedom and divine control coexist.

Human decisions are real and meaningful, yet they never thwart God’s purposes, reminding us that His wisdom and authority far exceed our understanding (Isaiah 55:8–9). Open theism underestimates God’s greatness, but the Bible assures us that He fully knows all things, is never surprised, and works all things together for His glory and our ultimate good (Romans 8:28).
 

Clete

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So you are saying that traditional omniscience is unbiblical?
As are a great many other traditional things.

Biblically, God knows everything knowable THAT HE WANTS TO KNOW and is able to find out anything knowable that He doesn't already know. He is not required to be a first person witness to every event that happens and He is fully capable of giving people privacy. He is also quite easily capable of ignoring people that He has no relationship with, such as the sexually perverse, just to give one example.

Genesis 18:16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Jeremiah 19:4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),
If those are insufficient to convince you, there are literally hundreds of passages that support a God such as I am describing. What you are clinging to is a Greek conception of God that was imported into Christianity by Augustine. The Omniscience of which you speak comes from the writings of Aristotle and Plato, not scripture.
 

Clete

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Who are you speaking of?
You!

Open theism is a system of thought that attempts to deal with the apparent conflict between two seeming truths: the free will of man and the foreknowledge of God. Open theism argues that in order for man to be truly free, God cannot know the future because if God knows the future, it has already been determined, which means that man cannot make truly free (uninfluenced) choices. But the Bible presents a different picture. Open theism ultimately fails because it tries to limit God’s knowledge based on human reasoning.

The Bible reveals that God’s knowledge is perfect (Psalm 139:1–6; Psalm 147:5) and that His plans are certain (Isaiah 46:9–10; Psalm 33:11). He is sovereign (Job 42:2; Proverbs 19:21) and omniscient (Matthew 26:34; John 2:24–25). At the same time, human freedom is real, but it operates within God’s overarching plan (Acts 2:23; Philippians 2:12–13). “Changes” in God’s plans are not because He did not know what would happen or that He was not sovereign; rather, He fits human decisions into His eternal design (Genesis 6:6; Exodus 32:9—13; 1 Samuel 15:29; Jeremiah 18:7—10). Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are not opposed. God weaves our choices into His perfect plan, demonstrating that true freedom and divine control coexist.

Human decisions are real and meaningful, yet they never thwart God’s purposes, reminding us that His wisdom and authority far exceed our understanding (Isaiah 55:8–9). Open theism underestimates God’s greatness, but the Bible assures us that He fully knows all things, is never surprised, and works all things together for His glory and our ultimate good (Romans 8:28).
You AI bot has failed you. Open Theism is not principally about reconciling free will with divine foreknowledge. It's about reading the bible and taking it to mean what it actually states, not what we want to read into it as is exemplified in every single one of the proof-texts it fed to you.
 

ttruscott

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I appreciate your response. Could it be possible that until we begin living our lives as teens/adults, He presently knows whether or not (unless someone changes), they won’t go to heaven, and allows the future to be “open” for the opportunity to change?
How would this not contradict the death of infants who then can't learn? If there is a time of innocence and death without sin then why did GOD not kill everyone of us before we could choose sin when HE has spoken solidly about NOT wanting anyone to perish?

Hell and our being with HIS ordinary omniscience brought me to a full stop when I realized that means HE knew our fate before our choices and created some of us knowing that we would end our lives, by our free will, in hell..,

All HE had to do to keep hell empty as HE has has told us HE wants it to be, would have been to not create those HE knew by HIS omniscience would choose hell. Easy peasy...except this steps on the toes of the so called orthodox.

Why HE creates those whom HE knows will choose to end in hell is NOT a mystery...it is a mistake in our theology; it never happened that way.
 

Skywatch89

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How would this not contradict the death of infants who then can't learn? If there is a time of innocence and death without sin then why did GOD not kill everyone of us before we could choose sin when HE has spoken solidly about NOT wanting anyone to perish?

Hell and our being with HIS ordinary omniscience brought me to a full stop when I realized that means HE knew our fate before our choices and created some of us knowing that we would end our lives, by our free will, in hell..,

All HE had to do to keep hell empty as HE has has told us HE wants it to be, would have been to not create those HE knew by HIS omniscience would choose hell. Easy peasy...except this steps on the toes of the so called orthodox.

Why HE creates those whom HE knows will choose to end in hell is NOT a mystery...it is a mistake in our theology; it never happened that way.
I’m not talking about infants.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Do you believe God knows every single thing I will think and do, since before I was born?
If by born you refer to our creation, not just our birth, then I do not and my 'proof' is that I believe that there will be people in an eternal hell only upon their free will.
 
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