History surrounding the Nicene Creed

Childlike

New member
Hi.

I have been trying to sort out the events surrounding the ultimate adoption of the Nicene Creed in 325A.D. and its immediate protection under Cannon Law. Frankly, facts surrounding this apparent reversal of the beliefs held by a large number, if not the majority, of Christians prior to this, the finality and closure of any other thinking on what appears to have been a strongly contested issue of the time with anyone voicing a different opinion immediately labelled a Heretic and closing all options for debate or alteration forever looks draconian.

Added to this Pope Gregory being exiled on a number of occasions and according to some reports excommunicated due to a willingness to alter Catholic/Christian teachings at the behest of the non-Christian Roman Emperor Constantine being the apparent driver for the Nicene Creeds acceptance, looks like the stuff of nightmares.

What references I have uncovered are either anti-Christian or so politically Correct that they are unintelligible. I would really appreciate a fair and true account of the actual events surrounding this obviously tumultuous period in History and its incontestable position to the present day. Some background to the establishment of the Orthodox Churches, which appear to have become major players would be well received too.
 

beameup

New member
There was establishment of the core beliefs from the Disciples and disciples of the Disciples throughout the Early Church Fathers until the 3rd Century, and then all sorts of heresies crept into Christianity. Miraculously, the Nicene Creed reestablished these core beliefs.
 

Childlike

New member
Thanks for the reply.

Do you have any actual documentation for your view?

Everything that I have read so far has indicated the opposite to be true and that the Trinity and Jesus being equal to God was essentially a construct deemed necessary by Constantine in order to establish and maintain control of the Western Roman Empire of Greece, Turkey and surrounds

The up side for the Church being that they would become a legitimate religion and no longer subject to the many executions for treason against the Roman Empire which they had endured for the previous 300 years.

Given the apparent excommunication of Pope Gregory and the multiple exiles it seems that the majority of Church leaders (Cardinals?)held with the Heresies which you mention?

These are all the reasons for my interest in etting to the truth of the unclear accounts of the time.
 

Childlike

New member
Excellent. I so love thorough examination. Thank you.
I look forward to viewing all of the links at my earliest opportunity.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Hi.

I have been trying to sort out the events surrounding the ultimate adoption of the Nicene Creed in 325A.D. and its immediate protection under Cannon Law. Frankly, facts surrounding this apparent reversal of the beliefs held by a large number, if not the majority, of Christians prior to this, the finality and closure of any other thinking on what appears to have been a strongly contested issue of the time with anyone voicing a different opinion immediately labelled a Heretic and closing all options for debate or alteration forever looks draconian.

Added to this Pope Gregory being exiled on a number of occasions and according to some reports excommunicated due to a willingness to alter Catholic/Christian teachings at the behest of the non-Christian Roman Emperor Constantine being the apparent driver for the Nicene Creeds acceptance, looks like the stuff of nightmares.

What references I have uncovered are either anti-Christian or so politically Correct that they are unintelligible. I would really appreciate a fair and true account of the actual events surrounding this obviously tumultuous period in History and its incontestable position to the present day. Some background to the establishment of the Orthodox Churches, which appear to have become major players would be well received too.

Abraham Lincoln in 1863 when President of the USA Abraham Lincoln blamed the cause of the American Civil War on Rome! The following quotes are from the book, “Fifty Years in the Church of Rome” by Charles Chiniquy, who was a priest in the Roman Catholic Church for 25 years and later left the Roman church and became a Presbyterian pastor. He was a close friend of the 16th President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln and had several personal interviews with him. The following are quotes from Abraham Lincoln during one of his talks with Charles Chiniquy. Read http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch61.html for the entire text. The emphasis in bold and comments in italics are mine. “It is with the Southern leaders of this civil war as with the big and small wheels of our railroad cars. Those who ignore the laws of mechanics are apt to think that the large, strong, and noisy wheels they see are the motive power, but they are mistaken. The real motive power is not seen; it is noiseless and well concealed in the dark, behind its iron walls. The motive power are the few well-concealed pails of water heated into steam, which is itself directed by the noiseless, small but unerring engineer’s finger. “The common people see and hear the big, noisy wheels of the Southern Confederacy’s cars; they call they Jeff Davis, Lee, Toombs, Beauregard, Semmes, ect., and they honestly think that they are the motive power, the first cause of our troubles. But this is a mistake. The true motive power is secreted behind the thick walls of the Vatican, the colleges and schools of the Jesuits, the convents of the nuns, and the confessional boxes of Rome. “There is a fact which is too much ignored by the American people, and with which I am acquainted only since I became President; it is that the best, the leading families of the South have received their education in great part, if not in whole, from the Jesuits and the nuns. Hence those degrading principles of slavery, pride, cruelty, which are as a second nature among so many of those people. Hence that strange want of fair play, humanity; that implacable hatred against the ideas of equality and liberty as we find them in the Gospel of Christ. You do not ignore that the first settlers of Louisiana, Florida, New Mexico, Texas, South California and Missouri were Roman Catholics, and that their first teachers were Jesuits. It is true that those states have been conquered or bought by us since. But Rome had put the deadly virus of her antisocial and anti-Christian maxims into the veins of the people before they became American citizens. Unfortunately, the Jesuits and the nuns have in great part remained the teachers of those people since. They have continued in a silent, but most efficacious way, to spread their hatred against our institutions, our laws, our schools, our rights and our liberties in such a way that this terrible conflict became unavoidable between the North and the South. As I told you before, it is to Popery that we owe this terrible civil war. “I would have laughed at the man who would have told me that before I became the President. But Professor Morse (Samuel Morse, the man who invented the telegraph and who also warned extensively about Jesuit infiltration and its undermining American culture) has opened my eyes on that subject. And now I see that mystery (also known as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT of Revelation 17:5); I understand that engineering of hell which, though not seen or even suspected by the country, is putting in motion the large, heavy, and noisy wheels of the state cars of the Southern Confederacy. Our people is not yet ready to learn and believe those things, and perhaps it is not the proper time to initiate them to those dark mysteries of hell; it would throw oil on a fire which is already sufficiently destructive. “You are almost the only one with whom I speak freely on that subject. But sooner or later the nation will know the real origin of those rivers of blood and tears, which are spreading desolation and death everywhere. And then those who have caused those desolations and disasters will be called to give an account of them. “I do not pretend to be a prophet. But though not a prophet, I see a very dark cloud on our horizon. And that dark cloud is coming from Rome. It is filled with tears of blood. It will rise and increase till its flanks will be torn by a flash of lightning, followed by a fearful peal of thunder. Then a cyclone, such as the world has never seen, will pass over this country, spreading ruin and desolation from north to south. After it is over, there will be long days of peace and prosperity: for Popery, with its Jesuits and merciless Inquisition, will have been for ever swept away from our country. Neither I nor you, but our children, will see those things.”



The institution that gave western Christianity's its foundation based on perverting parable into history is an embarrassment few want to face, because all their spiritual beliefs rest on that foundation from that council, pushing a false carnal sacrifice never required by our Spiritual Father Psalms 40:6, 2Cor 3:6, Luke 17:21.
 

Childlike

New member
Well.

I've had some time and opportunity to view most of the linked videos found them most informative and of great interest. They raise many questions for a different time and thread as well as offering a very general overview to some of the circumstances of 325 AD. sadly it lacks the specifics of just who the players were, their affiliations and circumstances leading to one view being preferred to the other at that time.

This is the culmination of momentous events in Christianity and there must be records of the events of the time:
What was the disposition of Pope Gregory?
Was he excommunicated while Pope?
Did he recant and how was he disposed after re-admission?
Under what circumstances was he exiled and on how many occasions?
Was the Nicene Creed the disposition of the Church, Constantine, Pope Gregory or other unknown persons?
Was political and or social/punitive measures applied to sway the results?

Folks, I am truly torn on many issues with Christianity an am in need of some clarity in many areas, which I will outline the most pressing now and bring them up in a new thread so please keep this one on topic.

As a young boy I was raised in a strict Catholic environment and accepted the Biblical teachings with passion and the Church edicts which fell outside the contents of the bible as Papal Teachings from God's living representative on earth.

A few of the teachings of Jesus were most dear to my heart and I feel that I absorbed them into my very being.

First and foremost of these is that He had a 'Loving Father in Heaven' Something that I had a great deal of trouble rationalizing against the Fire and Brimstone delivered from the pulpit. This feeling became intolerable when, at age 11, I was given my own Bible and found the old testament to be full of genocide either attributed directly from the 'Loving Father' upon His Children or directed by His behest of one group of His children upon another. I came to understand that Jesus making His statements regarding His 'Loving Father' that it was a direct attack on the scribes and Pharisees and their interpretation of the Old Testament. I also came to realise that those interpretations remained unaltered by the followers of Christ. This remains my greatest source of confusion and anxiety.

Combining the 'Loving Father' conundrum with 'Free Will' and the Father creating man in His own image and likeness the anxiety and confusion becomes an insurmountable barrier. The fact that all of the Nations who hold the Old Testament and its common interpretation as the foundation of their faith are the most warlike, vicious and sociopathic people of the world? Why do they all appear to hold domination of others through fear(the opposite of love), and the love of money as their core motivations?

There is much more but, for now at least, let us deal with the politics and people behind the Nicene Creed.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I have been trying to sort out the events surrounding the ultimate adoption of the Nicene Creed in 325A.D.

Rather than trolling about the internet, seek out the scholarly church history works by Jaroslav Pelikan, Richard A. Muller, or Alister E. McGrath. Lewis Ayres' book on Nicaea and it legacy is also worth reading.

AMR
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Well.

I've had some time and opportunity to view most of the linked videos found them most informative and of great interest. They raise many questions for a different time and thread as well as offering a very general overview to some of the circumstances of 325 AD. sadly it lacks the specifics of just who the players were, their affiliations and circumstances leading to one view being preferred to the other at that time.

This is the culmination of momentous events in Christianity and there must be records of the events of the time:
What was the disposition of Pope Gregory?
Was he excommunicated while Pope?
Did he recant and how was he disposed after re-admission?
Under what circumstances was he exiled and on how many occasions?
Was the Nicene Creed the disposition of the Church, Constantine, Pope Gregory or other unknown persons?
Was political and or social/punitive measures applied to sway the results?

Folks, I am truly torn on many issues with Christianity an am in need of some clarity in many areas, which I will outline the most pressing now and bring them up in a new thread so please keep this one on topic.

As a young boy I was raised in a strict Catholic environment and accepted the Biblical teachings with passion and the Church edicts which fell outside the contents of the bible as Papal Teachings from God's living representative on earth.

A few of the teachings of Jesus were most dear to my heart and I feel that I absorbed them into my very being.

First and foremost of these is that He had a 'Loving Father in Heaven' Something that I had a great deal of trouble rationalizing against the Fire and Brimstone delivered from the pulpit. This feeling became intolerable when, at age 11, I was given my own Bible and found the old testament to be full of genocide either attributed directly from the 'Loving Father' upon His Children or directed by His behest of one group of His children upon another. I came to understand that Jesus making His statements regarding His 'Loving Father' that it was a direct attack on the scribes and Pharisees and their interpretation of the Old Testament. I also came to realise that those interpretations remained unaltered by the followers of Christ. This remains my greatest source of confusion and anxiety.

Combining the 'Loving Father' conundrum with 'Free Will' and the Father creating man in His own image and likeness the anxiety and confusion becomes an insurmountable barrier. The fact that all of the Nations who hold the Old Testament and its common interpretation as the foundation of their faith are the most warlike, vicious and sociopathic people of the world? Why do they all appear to hold domination of others through fear(the opposite of love), and the love of money as their core motivations?

There is much more but, for now at least, let us deal with the politics and people behind the Nicene Creed.

The place of council the sons of men are told to seek out is within Luke 17:21, we are the temple of God 1Cor 3:16, that the scripture is wrote for and about, something the majority of what I call exoteric leaning religious Priests, teachers, and theologians of any period fail to teach their converts for self preservation of the institution Matt 23:13, to keep you focused on the outside, and dependent on their scholar worship system.

The scripture is based on two concepts symbolized by many words dark/dead/asleep/blind, etc.. and light/awake/regenerated/reborn, etc... 2Cor 3:6 is the only divisional revelator in scripture that separates the son of man Gal 4:1 from the son of God Romans 8:10, from each other, even though they both live in the same kingdom/house/temple Gal 5:17, it's a metaphorical wrestling match within man while Christ is being formed in you, once that proceeds from dark/awakening/rising from dead sleep, to awake in the light of a new day Eph 5:13, revealing shadow/dark sayings/parables Psalms 78:2, Gal 4:24, Proverbs 1:6 read by the son of man while sitting in darkness are then spiritually enlightened showing the spiritual meaning behind the scriptures elemental cover story Hebrews 6:1-6, 2Cor 5:16, that no son of man can solve that symbolic riddle, only our divine inner man waking up can do that Gal 1:12, Matt 4:16, Gal 4:30.

But if you still want diverse opinions on the time period from an Esoteric assessment of what was going on before the Roman council and during the period from the words of those worthy of being in the exoteric camp showing the willful bias that was taking place then, read Alvin Boyd Kuhn's THE SHADOW OF THE THIRD CENTURY will have some nuggets you won't here about from the traditional proselytizers stuck defending their blood stained foundation.
 

Childlike

New member
Rather than trolling about the internet, ..
AMR

Thanks for the reference material.
I am however not "trolling the internet". I have serious questions to which I seek answers and have grown old with failing eyesight, which severely limits my reading ability, leaving me with a computer screen as my best and effectively only real resource.

My questions are somewhat direct as are my statements of where I find myself after more than 50 years asking what I truly believe are logical questions and trying to sort through obfuscated replies and catechisms with rarely an actual response to the salient points of the question to be found. I have come here in the hope of getting some succinct information from learned people without having to check my logic at the door.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Thanks for the reference material.
I am however not "trolling the internet". I have serious questions to which I seek answers and have grown old with failing eyesight, which severely limits my reading ability, leaving me with a computer screen as my best and effectively only real resource.

My questions are somewhat direct as are my statements of where I find myself after more than 50 years asking what I truly believe are logical questions and trying to sort through obfuscated replies and catechisms with rarely an actual response to the salient points of the question to be found. I have come here in the hope of getting some succinct information from learned people without having to check my logic at the door.
Those references I provided are available in electronic formats if you use something like Logos or Accordance bible software tools. You can adjust the text sizes accordingly.

Rather than being overly consumed about the how of various creeds and confessions, focus upon the what contained therein, testing their summaries of doctrine against their norming norm, Holy Writ, for veracity. In other words if you have questions about what these creeds and confessions teach, ask them and perhaps answers will be forthcoming.

For that matter most creeds and confessions have expositions available wherein one can view how the church militant came to the conclusions therein.

For example,

WCF Confession: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
WCF Exposition: http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/

LBCF Confession: http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html
LBCF Exposition: https://goo.gl/hNoscQ


AMR
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Thanks for the reference material.
I am however not "trolling the internet". I have serious questions to which I seek answers and have grown old with failing eyesight, which severely limits my reading ability, leaving me with a computer screen as my best and effectively only real resource.

My questions are somewhat direct as are my statements of where I find myself after more than 50 years asking what I truly believe are logical questions and trying to sort through obfuscated replies and catechisms with rarely an actual response to the salient points of the question to be found. I have come here in the hope of getting some succinct information from learned people without having to check my logic at the door.

It's a need no one can satisfies seeing you been outwardly searching all theses years and still feeling unsettled, requesting opinions based on opinion based on another opinion from the historical data available, Kuhn's good, and certainly based on the period in question, but you may have a preconceived restrictions to looking for information from a non conventional approach since the third century made a false boogeyman out of the esoteric interpretation of the scripture, you didn't say you were limiting your criteria to the traditional fundamentals which is why I suggested the shadow of the third century, anyway to me any spiritual answer you seek is found in the esoteric path pointing to you being the dwelling place of God, that's the only way to unseal the dead letters observable patterns of the spiritual/heavenly things concerning you a temple in the non observable kingdom of the living God Luke 17:20-21.
 

Childlike

New member
Thank you both Zeke and Mr. Religion and I will check the material suggested. Sorry I missed your original post Zeke..

All material is always of interest as I have a rather unique method of study which is my reason for wanting to be aware of the dispositions of the people in the event. I look at the people in the Bible and Churches, their circumstances, actions and possible motives, feelings and the resultant outcomes in the real world of being human and within their own society of their own time.. This technique has led me to revelations which have changed the emphasis and often the understanding of meaningful content of what is written. I know that I am far from alone in this approach and I simply wonder if the altered understand brought by viewing the Old Testament scriptures in the light of Jesus' New Testament teachings may have been snuffed out in the 4th century? I have no reliable evidence or opinion as yet only a desire for clarity.

For clarity sake I will give the best and possibly most important example of my typical thought train...
Sorry no quotes but what I will paraphrase is well enough known to by all here to not require it and I want you to go take a fresh look for yourselves anyway.. grin.

Jesus told us two truly key pieces of information that if held at the forefront of ones mind when reading the Old Testament should cause a monumental change in ones understanding of what we read.
Jesus said that He has a Loving Father in Heaven. (Most important filter of all)
Jesus also said to Judge not lest you yourself be judged and to give up your judgement unto Him. (That it both the most difficult task which I can imagine and is ignored almost in its entirety by everyone. I try my absolute best.) It is also key to the understanding of the 'Fall of Adam and Eve and the very nature of original sin as well as the nature of mankind since that time including those writing and participating in the events described in the Bible.

Reading 'The Fall' with the aforementioned points and only those points in mind reveals the true nature of the error of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the consequential judgements made by Adam and Eve upon themselves and everything else in sight as well as judging God's anticipated horror at the sight of them naked (as they had always been). It shows God's attempts to quiet them by providing clothing to them and His counsel to aid their adjustment to the new circumstances that they had created for themselves. I can no longer view this scripture as anything but what I describe and see no punishment or even sin. Just a great error or judgement. Oh so human of them.

If one reads on with a Loving God and a mankind suffering from an inability to cope with the knowledge of good and evil as taught them by their ancestors much of the rest of the Old Testament in particular becomes turned on its head.

Back to the 4th Century and I suspect that as the disciples of Jesus do not appear to have heeded Jesus's teachings on Judgement, Loving Father, or indeed forgiveness any more than the rest of mankind, that the change in understanding that those teachings would have brought us may have been consigned to the scrap heap.

All I know for sure is that God's Will be Done and that I gave up trying to understand His Ways many years ago. I content myself with simple observation and fascination.
 

Childlike

New member
It's a need no one can satisfies seeing you been outwardly searching all theses years and still feeling unsettled, requesting opinions based on opinion based on another opinion from the historical data available, Kuhn's good, and certainly based on the period in question, but you may have a preconceived restrictions to looking for information from a non conventional approach since the third century made a false boogeyman out of the esoteric interpretation of the scripture, you didn't say you were limiting your criteria to the traditional fundamentals which is why I suggested the shadow of the third century, anyway to me any spiritual answer you seek is found in the esoteric path pointing to you being the dwelling place of God, that's the only way to unseal the dead letters observable patterns of the spiritual/heavenly things concerning you a temple in the non observable kingdom of the living God Luke 17:20-21.

I've begun reading Kuhn's book. Early days yet but nothing found of profound significance thus far.
The author places great import on incorrect dates of the birth of Jesus and connections between Hebrew and Egyptian etc., which frankly are both expected and of no real import to my research. The Hebrews or their ancestors were slaves of the Egyptians for a long period and all Nations trace their ancestors to Noah and thus Adam so shared doctrine and philosophy is natural. So far Kuhn is making much of the fact that Jesus didn't shed new light on the teachings within the Hebrew and Jewish scriptures which is closer to the point but, while Kuhn points that out as being evidence of sameness, I see that Jesus indeed did attempt to make changes to the understanding of those teaching and failed. My question is why? The research is trying to unearth the causes of that failure. I feel as though the author is likely going down the path of the common comparison between Jesus and Buddha which in some way poses the question of "Did God send a divine teacher in different personages to different nations at different times?" While I'm personally curious about that theory, specially in the light of the Buddhists, who have no recognition of God, having numerous accounts of ascension events, it does not relate to the largely ignored portions of the teachings of Jesus by the Christian doctrines.

As I said, I will read on in the hope of more revelation. I am intrigued by an early reference to the Astral, with which I have first hand knowledge from some of my earliest research and experience and which still emerges at surprising times in the most emphatic and sometimes unnerving ways. I would love to share some f those experiences but that would be most inappropriate in this forum. No, I am not unfamiliar or closed minded to alternative teachings or ideas. I have experienced many of them and studied most while always holding the Hebrew God and Jesus in my heart. Kuhn appears more narrow in his experience and inclined to place shock value upon things that I view to be placed in the 'so what' basket. Hope he improves.
 

beameup

New member
I have serious questions to which I seek answers and have grown old with failing eyesight, which severely limits my reading ability, leaving me with a computer screen as my best and effectively only real resource.
I recommend Ken Johnson's Youtube "videos", as he is a real expert on ancient manuscripts and I know of no one else that has done or is doing the same research as he is. Most of his "videos" are actually audio tracks, which should make it easy for you. He's a "scholar" that talks in easy to understand language.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNfF5IREQ_9hiRm47UX0E5g

 

Zeke

Well-known member
I've begun reading Kuhn's book. Early days yet but nothing found of profound significance thus far.
The author places great import on incorrect dates of the birth of Jesus and connections between Hebrew and Egyptian etc., which frankly are both expected and of no real import to my research. The Hebrews or their ancestors were slaves of the Egyptians for a long period and all Nations trace their ancestors to Noah and thus Adam so shared doctrine and philosophy is natural. So far Kuhn is making much of the fact that Jesus didn't shed new light on the teachings within the Hebrew and Jewish scriptures which is closer to the point but, while Kuhn points that out as being evidence of sameness, I see that Jesus indeed did attempt to make changes to the understanding of those teaching and failed. My question is why? The research is trying to unearth the causes of that failure. I feel as though the author is likely going down the path of the common comparison between Jesus and Buddha which in some way poses the question of "Did God send a divine teacher in different personages to different nations at different times?" While I'm personally curious about that theory, specially in the light of the Buddhists, who have no recognition of God, having numerous accounts of ascension events, it does not relate to the largely ignored portions of the teachings of Jesus by the Christian doctrines.

As I said, I will read on in the hope of more revelation. I am intrigued by an early reference to the Astral, with which I have first hand knowledge from some of my earliest research and experience and which still emerges at surprising times in the most emphatic and sometimes unnerving ways. I would love to share some f those experiences but that would be most inappropriate in this forum. No, I am not unfamiliar or closed minded to alternative teachings or ideas. I have experienced many of them and studied most while always holding the Hebrew God and Jesus in my heart. Kuhn appears more narrow in his experience and inclined to place shock value upon things that I view to be placed in the 'so what' basket. Hope he improves.

Early days? The Shadow Of The Third Century was the one I recommended concerning the time period you're researching, plus he died in 1963. I don't recall him putting much credibility on the carnal historic Jesus motif or the exodus myth so I don't know who you're reading but you're points seem unrelated to the book he wrote about the period.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
The central thesis of Dr. Kuhn's work hypothesizes that the sages of ancient mythologies did not intend for biblical writings to be read in a literal manner, but that it was their plan to transmit veiled truths via parable and allegory. Holy writ, asserts Professor Kuhn, has no basis for interpretation along historical lines. Orthodoxy's interpretation of the Bible has resulted, in Dr. Kuhn's words, in the "unconscionable stultification" of man's ability to perceive and utilize divine truths. Moreover, Kuhn advises us that true Christianity was proscribed in the third century and replaced with "Christianism." In his brilliant and illuminating The Shadow of the Third Century,

Kuhn quotes St. Augustine to assert that Christianity existed in different forms and under different names in times preceding the Galilean: That which is known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the very beginning of the human race [perhaps this explains the equal-arm crucifix intaglios of Neolithic times] until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion which already existed, began to be called Christianity. - Retractt. I, xiii.


I agree with his thesis, and see the Romanized version of the Christ crucified they fed to the west as historical fact is a hoax that has hypnotized the west into state of cognitive dissonance, unable to solve the riddle of duplicity in the scriptures narratives or the mystery behind the eyes of the one reading it under the influence of divine amnesia.
 

Childlike

New member
I agree with his thesis, and see the Romanized version of the Christ crucified they fed to the west as historical fact is a hoax that has hypnotized the west into state of cognitive dissonance, unable to solve the riddle of duplicity in the scriptures narratives or the mystery behind the eyes of the one reading it under the influence of divine amnesia.

I haven't read far enough to find the events of the 3rd Century yet so was only giving an initial impression.
While I have been aware that the 25th of December was the designated date for the birth of many pagan gods before Christ and the reason for that, I also realise that the politics of Rome probably had much to do with adopting that date and even the year for their own reasons and would have done so with an indifferent Jewish leadership at that time. I am also aware of their being no Tax or Census event for some years either side of the year etcetera but, as a Christian at heart, I am able to allow that people with other interest than a Messiah, who was ignored by His own people, may have had reason to mess with some of that detail. Face it, the Jews didn't care and neither did the Romans so a little imaginative propaganda to quiet down a few disruptive disciples wasn't a bad thing for the community at large. Right?
I will continue to read but not yet ready to throw out the bath-water before checking for occupants :)
 

Bee1

New member
I haven't read far enough to find the events of the 3rd Century yet so was only giving an initial impression.
While I have been aware that the 25th of December was the designated date for the birth of many pagan gods before Christ and the reason for that, I also realise that the politics of Rome probably had much to do with adopting that date and even the year for their own reasons and would have done so with an indifferent Jewish leadership at that time. I am also aware of their being no Tax or Census event for some years either side of the year etcetera but, as a Christian at heart, I am able to allow that people with other interest than a Messiah, who was ignored by His own people, may have had reason to mess with some of that detail. Face it, the Jews didn't care and neither did the Romans so a little imaginative propaganda to quiet down a few disruptive disciples wasn't a bad thing for the community at large. Right?
I will continue to read but not yet ready to throw out the bath-water before checking for occupants :)
Constantine did not accept Christanity until on his deathbed, he use Jesus to unite his political party which the people whose majority were Christians. He also decided what books stayed in the Bible and what books did not. He also introduce Easter a pagan holiday.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
 

jsanford108

New member
Hi.

I have been trying to sort out the events surrounding the ultimate adoption of the Nicene Creed in 325A.D. and its immediate protection under Cannon Law. Frankly, facts surrounding this apparent reversal of the beliefs held by a large number, if not the majority, of Christians prior to this, the finality and closure of any other thinking on what appears to have been a strongly contested issue of the time with anyone voicing a different opinion immediately labelled a Heretic and closing all options for debate or alteration forever looks draconian.

Added to this Pope Gregory being exiled on a number of occasions and according to some reports excommunicated due to a willingness to alter Catholic/Christian teachings at the behest of the non-Christian Roman Emperor Constantine being the apparent driver for the Nicene Creeds acceptance, looks like the stuff of nightmares.

What references I have uncovered are either anti-Christian or so politically Correct that they are unintelligible. I would really appreciate a fair and true account of the actual events surrounding this obviously tumultuous period in History and its incontestable position to the present day. Some background to the establishment of the Orthodox Churches, which appear to have become major players would be well received too.
I apologize for my late arrival to the discussion, but as a fan of history and context, I would like to toss in my cents' worth.

First, it does well to establish terminology and vocabulary. Canon law is ecclesiastical law, such as ordinances, beliefs, and regulations, made for the church by the Church. So, yes, the Nicene Creed is Canon. Heresy is any doctrine or teaching that goes against Church/Canon law and teachings. (I state this for any who for some reason do not understand the vocabulary; you seem to grasp it quite efficiently)

As beameup pointed out, the Nicene Creed is a declaration of beliefs that were held by the Apostles, their disciples, and early Church Fathers/Christians. So, the Nicene Creed was not an establishing of a "reversal of beliefs....held by the majority," but rather a firm declaration of Apostolic teachings. This is also why it was declared Canon law, so that Christianity would be united in a singular set of beliefs. That is why any dissenters were labelled as heretics.

This would also make sense for the excommunication reports for Pope Gregory due to a willingness to alter these teachings, since he would be altering and disagreeing with the teachings of the Apostles. Granted, one must take any "reports," or rumors, with a grain of salt, as many abounded. Pope Gregory (assuming Pope Gregory I) was not excommunicated, though. He did have a disagreement with a prominent member in Constantinople, named Eutychius, however, it did not lead to exile or excommunication. In fact, Pope Gregory defended the Scriptural account of the Resurrection, in that disagreement.

I am unsure how Pope Gregory I could have been exiled or excommunicated by Emperor Constantine (you are absolutely correct about Constantine being a non-Christian), since Constantine was Emperor last in 337 AD, and Pope Gregory was born in 540 AD. I think either you have some faulty sources, or I misinterpreted your words and meaning in the second paragraph.

Sources: Spielvogel, Jackson Western Civilization, 2008
Hunt, Martin, etc Making of the West, Sources for "Making of the West", 2008, 2008
 
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