ECT Hermeneutics - The Who? What? Where? and When? of Scripture

[iamaberean]

From Genesis 1 אָדָם translated as "man"
From Genesis 2 אָדָם translated as "Adam"
also from Genesis 2 הָֽאָדָם translated as "Adam" (addition of הָֽ, which means "the" as in "the man")

You can go to someone that can translate Hebrew, but that will not change the unalterable fact that the exact same Hebrew word is used in all instances.
אָדָם translated as "man" and אָדָם translated as "Adam" are interchangeable.

Is the word really the same? One is speaking of mankind and the other is speaking of the one named 'Adam'. For understanding, as you have done, Adam is capitalized and the other is not. The scripture says ,man, or mankind, not the man named Adam, who is the son of God.

Why is it when the scripture is plain, it isn't believed? It seems that one would rather believe that fallen spirits, angels, are taking wives of mankind. That is what doesn't make sense because angels lack the tools and that has to be for a reason.

Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Is the word really the same?

Yes, the word is really the same, the difference comes only in translations.

One is speaking of mankind and the other is speaking of the one named 'Adam'. For understanding, as you have done, Adam is capitalized and the other is not. The scripture says ,man, or mankind, not the man named Adam, who is the son of God.

The translators made the changes you are relying upon.

Why is it when the scripture is plain, it isn't believed? It seems that one would rather believe that fallen spirits, angels, are taking wives of mankind.

That is the plain meaning of the text, which is why so many people believe that is what the verse means.

That is what doesn't make sense because angels lack the tools and that has to be for a reason.

Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

The angels do not marry, but that does not mean that the angels are incapable of fathering children:

Genesis 6:4 EXB (Expanded Bible) 4 The ·Nephilim [L fallen ones; C the significance of the name is unclear] were on the earth in those days and also later. That was when the sons of God ·had sexual relations with [L came in to] the daughters of ·human beings [T man; C Hebrew: Adam; 1:27–28]. These women gave birth to children ·who became famous [L men of a name] and were the mighty warriors of long ago. [C The Nephilim of Num. 13:31–33, though not related genealogically, were giants, suggesting these pre-flood Nephilim were also.]​

 

[iamaberean]

Yes, the word is really the same, the difference comes only in translations.


The translators made the changes you are relying upon.

That is the plain meaning of the text, which is why so many people believe that is what the verse means.

The translator meanings that I rely upon are the ones that are in the Bible. As a Christian I believe it is the word of God, as written. I have personally never found a scripture that is untrue. Maybe I didn't understand it at first, but that didn't make it untrue.

God's word says that the sons of God were of the man named Adam, not the men created in Gen 1, and certainly not angels.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have changed my view because of the scriptures you have shown. However, I am still a partial preterist since I believe that the end of the age of Law, or the end of the world as they knew it, was completed in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple.

So are you saying that the term "end of the age" meant something different than the way the Lord Jesus used it at Matthew 13 than the way the Lord's disciples used it at Matthew 24:3?

 

[iamaberean]

So are you saying that the term "end of the age" meant something different than the way the Lord Jesus used it at Matthew 13 than the way the Lord's disciples used it at Matthew 24:3?

Just felt that either the end of the age or the end of the world as they knew it. That is because age of law ended in 70 AD. Relates to the time that God told his children to go into the promise land and because they didn't believe they could take the land. God kept them from entering for 40 years, until that generation had passed away. Jesus witnessed to his people in Jerusalem and because some would not except him' he kept them in the age of law, which would end in 40 years. Jesus was around 30 years old when crucified plus 40 years to the end of that generation. That would make it 70 AD and that was when the temple was totally destroyed. I also believe it was considered the last day and the dead children of Israel were raised and judged.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The translator meanings that I rely upon are the ones that are in the Bible. As a Christian I believe it is the word of God, as written. I have personally never found a scripture that is untrue. Maybe I didn't understand it at first, but that didn't make it untrue.

God's word says that the sons of God were of the man named Adam, not the men created in Gen 1, and certainly not angels.

Not quite.
Claiming that "the sons of God were of the man named Adam" is your interpretation that comes from you attempting to assign a meaning that you can accept to a phrase that has no clearly defined meaning.

To do this, you are taking a verse from the New Testament (Luke 3:38) and attempting to apply it to the verses in Genesis.
The biggest problem with this is that there is no historical proof that anyone writing in the Old Testament thought Adam was the son of God, and there is no historical proof that anyone thought that the sons of God mentioned in Genesis were sons of Adam until several centuries after the New Testament was written.

There are three common beliefs about what "the sons of God" meant in Genesis.
Please notice that the second and third belief come about only after rejecting the first and oldest belief.
The people that invented the second and third belief could not accept the common belief, so they came up with their own versions, despite the lack of any historical evidence to support their newly invented beliefs.

The Sons of God The first, and oldest, belief is that " the sons of God " were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring called nephilim (Heb. נפלים). This view was widely held in the world of the first century, and was supported by Flavius Josephus, Philo, Eusebius and many of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers," including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Athenagoras and Commodianus. The second view is one which was first suggested by Julius Africanus and later advocated by Saint Augustine, the Catholic Bishop of Hippo. Augustine rejected the concept of the fallen host having committed fornication with women. In his early fifth century book The City of God, he promoted the theory that " the sons of God " simply referred to the genealogical line of Seth, who were committed to preserving the true worship of God. He interpreted Genesis 6 to mean that the male offspring of Adam through Seth were " the sons of God ," and the female offspring of Adam through Cain were "the daughters of men." He wrote that the problem was that the family of Seth had interbred with the family of Cain, intermingling the bloodlines and corrupting the pure religion. This view has become the dominant one among most modern biblical scholars. The third view is that " the sons of God " were the sons of pre-Flood rulers or magistrates. This belief became the standard explanation of rabbinical Judaism after Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai pronounced a curse in the second century CE upon those Jews who believed the common teaching that the angels were responsible for the nephilim. This interpretation was advocated by two of the most respected Jewish sages of the Middle Ages, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki (Rashi) and Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (Nachmanides), and became the standard explanation of rabbinical Judaism. However, it is not widely accepted by modern scholars.

​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just felt that either the end of the age or the end of the world as they knew it.

The way that his disciples knew what the "end of the age" meant was according to what the Lord Jesus said about it at Matthew 13.

If you believe what the Lord Jesus said there about the "end of the age" then you should know that the end of the age will not happen until there is a world wide harvest when all those who do evil will be taken out of the world. That has not happened.

All you are doing is denying what the Lord Jesus said about what would happen then and putting a different meaning than the Lord's meaning of the "end of the age."

 

[iamaberean]

The way that his disciples knew what the "end of the age" meant was according to what the Lord Jesus said about it at Matthew 13.

If you believe what the Lord Jesus said there about the "end of the age" then you should know that the end of the age will not happen until there is a world wide harvest when all those who do evil will be taken out of the world. That has not happened.

All you are doing is denying what the Lord Jesus said about what would happen then and putting a different meaning than the Lord's meaning of the "end of the age."

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Jesus came to fulfill all that had been written of him. This happened, and it ended the age of Law.

Jesus spoke in parables to explain other things that would happen, the wheat and the tares is the one you make mention of. I use to think that had already happen, but the truth is there are tares still in existence today.

Jesus shall return, and he will separate the tares from the wheat and burn them. Then he will set up his kingdom that will be forever.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus shall return, and he will separate the tares from the wheat and burn them. Then he will set up his kingdom that will be forever.

Since that has not yet happened we know that the "end of the age" has not yet come to pass and the kingdom age is not here yet. We know that because only those who are "born again" can enter the kingdom (Jn.3:3-4) and the world is full of people who are not born again.

 

[iamaberean]

Since that has not yet happened we know that the "end of the age" has not yet come to pass and the kingdom age is not here yet. We know that because only those who are "born again" can enter the kingdom (Jn.3:3-4) and the world is full of people who are not born again.

The age of Law has ended. We are in the age of Grace and according to biblical info I have read, this age is just about over.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The age of Law has ended. We are in the age of Grace and according to biblical info I have read, this age is just about over.

There is no such thing as an "age" of grace because throughout history men have been saved in only one way--by grace through faith.

The kingdom age will not even be near until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth, as witnessed by what the He said in the following passage:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

 

[iamaberean]

There is no such thing as an "age" of grace because throughout history men have been saved in only one way--by grace through faith.

The kingdom age will not even be near until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth, as witnessed by what the He said in the following passage:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you are quoting those verses to try to prove that believers weren't saved by grace until the Cross then explain why we read the following about Abraham:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-5).​

 

[iamaberean]

There is no such thing as an "age" of grace because throughout history men have been saved in only one way--by grace through faith.

The kingdom age will not even be near until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth, as witnessed by what the He said in the following passage:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

Point taken!

 

[iamaberean]

We have always been told that we are body, spirit and soul.

Actually, the same Hebrew word for body 'nephesh', a breathing creature, is also translated as soul, without any reason.

נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (creature).

 

[Truster]

We have always been told that we are body, spirit and soul.

Actually, the same Hebrew word for body 'nephesh', a breathing creature, is also translated as soul, without any reason.

נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (creature).

The soul in man is eternal while the soul in creatures is temporal.

 

[iamaberean]

The soul in man is eternal while the soul in creatures is temporal.

As we have been taught, you would be right. But the bible does not say the soul is eternal. Creatures are those that have breath, the soul would not have breath.
In the old testament those that had died were raised up for judgment. When we die we either go to our grave or to heaven. The choice has been ours according to our belief.

 

[Truster]

As we have been taught, you would be right. But the bible does not say the soul is eternal. Creatures are those that have breath, the soul would not have breath.
In the old testament those that had died were raised up for judgment. When we die we either go to our grave or to heaven. The choice has been ours according to our belief.

You obviously have no idea of what soul and spirit mean. How they differ and what the office of each is.

 

[iamaberean]

You obviously have no idea of what soul and spirit mean. How they differ and what the office of each is.

You are right, I do not see changing the Hebrew word to mean 'soul' when 'creature' fits just fine.

I know that when God breathed into Adam the breath of life, that was Spirit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You obviously have no idea of what soul and spirit mean. How they differ and what the office of each is.

Would you mind explaining what both mean?