ECT Healing

[Totton Linnet]

Then how do you explain my healings, both of which have been verified by doctors?

You limit God by saying that He can only deal with man that way. God brings man to Himself by His Spirit leading to salvation. God deals with His Childhood through the atonement but I was healed before I was saved, The Lord used that as part of His drawing process to bring me to repentance and faith in Christ. I am yet to see a solid Biblical case for healing in the atonement.

Pete ��

No, you misunderstand me, Imma saying we could have nothing except that God has the atonement in view.

Even if you did not know that your healing was bought and paid for at the whipping post, it still was, people do not always understand that their salvation was bought and paid for at the cross but it still was.

Matthew said when Jesus healed all who came to Him it was to fulfil what Isaiah prophesied "Himself bore our sicknesses and carried our infirmities" but He had not yet died on the cross, but the cross was and is an eternal sacrifice.

Eternity is not only future but past, present and future.

 

[andyc]

Then how do you explain my healings, both of which have been verified by doctors?

You limit God by saying that He can only deal with man that way. God brings man to Himself by His Spirit leading to salvation. God deals with His Childhood through the atonement but I was healed before I was saved, The Lord used that as part of His drawing process to bring me to repentance and faith in Christ. I am yet to see a solid Biblical case for healing in the atonement.

Pete ��

The benefits of the new covenant are based on the atonement. Everything that flows from God to man in this age come from promises in the new covenant gospel, which are based on the atonement.
When Peter healed the man at the beautiful gate, he addressed the crowd by saying, "why does this surprise you?"
The people should not have been surprised at the healing, which means it cannot be based on God's sovereignty. Peter explained that it is through faith in the name of Jesus, that the man stood among them whole. And so the death and resurrection was a triumph over every kind of bondage. The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy, but Jesus came to give life to the full.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Prayer and medical improbabilities (miracle) clearly happen, however, laying hands on like Peter is shown to not work. Which goes with what Paul taught.

They took aprons from Paul's body in the latter part of his missionary journeys and the WHOLE Isle of Malta was healed.

We also see that within the body of Christ as Paul established them were healers and workers of miracles.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then how do you explain my healings, both of which have been verified by doctors?

You limit God by saying that He can only deal with man that way. God brings man to Himself by His Spirit leading to salvation. God deals with His Childhood through the atonement but I was healed before I was saved, The Lord used that as part of His drawing process to bring me to repentance and faith in Christ. I am yet to see a solid Biblical case for healing in the atonement.

Pete ��

Himself bore our sickness and carried our diseases...that is the cross, the atonement.

 

[intojoy]

you said six centuries

Is that you or the Johny Walker speaking

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Thanks all! Interesting, Isa 53 (one of the servant songs) does indeed speak to Israel but also is too descriptive of Jesus to write off that interpretation completely. Also there are many personal pronouns that make the Israel alone interpretation difficult. Would it follow that if healing is in the atonement every Christian would be healed and healthy?

The resurrection will occur because of the atonement of the cross, so that then true believers will be more than completely healed requiring no further action of atonement than exists now.

Christ healed people before the cross and continues to do so now but not to all.

One reason is that mankind gets to be wanting the wrong things first, such a natural idolater man is.

They desire the power of God and forget the Person very quickly.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

How would we like it if our children wanted our riches but not you.

LA

 

[revpete]

Himself bore our sickness and carried our diseases...that is the cross, the atonement.

The Hebrew word for healing in this verse means spiritual healing and at a stretch physical. However, I am not completely happy making God's Word fit my theology, when actually it's supposed to be the other way round.

Pete

 

[revpete]

The resurrection will occur because of the atonement of the cross, so that then true believers will be more than completely healed requiring no further action of atonement than exists now.

Christ healed people before the cross and continues to do so now but not to all.

One reason is that mankind gets to be wanting the wrong things first, such a natural idolater man is.

They desire the power of God and forget the Person very quickly.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

How would we like it if our children wanted our riches but not you.

LA

You describe a carnal nature. Even though we have such a nature it should not be dominant as the nature you describe is.

I agree with your first statement.

Pete

 

[revpete]

The benefits of the new covenant are based on the atonement. Everything that flows from God to man in this age come from promises in the new covenant gospel, which are based on the atonement.
When Peter healed the man at the beautiful gate, he addressed the crowd by saying, "why does this surprise you?"
The people should not have been surprised at the healing, which means it cannot be based on God's sovereignty. Peter explained that it is through faith in the name of Jesus, that the man stood among them whole. And so the death and resurrection was a triumph over every kind of bondage. The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy, but Jesus came to give life to the full.

You clearly do not understand The Sovereignty of God, which is the biggest, most complex doctrine in scripture and sadly the most misunderstood. Everything comes through His Sovereignty! A person can receive nothing except it were given from above. Every good and every perfect gift comes from The Father of light.
..etc.

Peter was referring to Joel's prophecy in chapter two of his writing. A gentle rebuke for their apparent ignorance of God's Word.

Pete

 

[revpete]

No, you misunderstand me, Imma saying we could have nothing except that God has the atonement in view.

Even if you did not know that your healing was bought and paid for at the whipping post, it still was, people do not always understand that their salvation was bought and paid for at the cross but it still was.

Matthew said when Jesus healed all who came to Him it was to fulfil what Isaiah prophesied "Himself bore our sicknesses and carried our infirmities" but He had not yet died on the cross, but the cross was and is an eternal sacrifice.

Eternity is not only future but past, present and future.

I see what you're saying but it still does not explain sickness in the Church. 2Tim. 4:20 states that Paul left a brother sick. Did Paul pray for him? I think we can safely assume he did.

By your logic a person can be saved and not understand how. Now our Lord knows the heart so that can true of a person who is incapable of understanding but not of the average person. Jesus Himself spoke of understanding quite a bit. He said that a person understands with their heart meaning the centre of their beings He also rebuked them for their lack of it.

If healing was Indeed part of the atonement then all who were saved would be healed. The church is given direction in James on praying for the sick. Do all sick people not understand the cross? Your argument is flawed in many ways. However, if you can prove you position from scripture clearly and conclusively I will listen and learn. Thanks for your reply.

Pete

 

[Totton Linnet]

The Hebrew word for healing in this verse means spiritual healing and at a stretch physical. However, I am not completely happy making God's Word fit my theology, when actually it's supposed to be the other way round.

Pete ��

Quite so, make your theology fit God's word....when Jesus healed the physically sick Matthew said it was to fulfil Isaiah "He bare our sicknesses and carried our diseases"

The word for SAVED means to be made every whit whole

 

[Totton Linnet]

I see what you're saying but it still does not explain sickness in the Church. 2Tim. 4:20 states that Paul left a brother sick. Did Paul pray for him? I think we can safely assume he did.

By your logic a person can be saved and not understand how. Now our Lord knows the heart so that can true of a person who is incapable of understanding but not of the average person. Jesus Himself spoke of understanding quite a bit. He said that a person understands with their heart meaning the centre of their beings He also rebuked them for their lack of it.

If healing was Indeed part of the atonement then all who were saved would be healed. The church is given direction in James on praying for the sick. Do all sick people not understand the cross? Your argument is flawed in many ways. However, if you can prove you position from scripture clearly and conclusively I will listen and learn. Thanks for your reply.

Pete ��

Yes there are all those things, but people also sin...sometimes greviously. And the human heart can be extremely wayward with God, even your Smith Wigglesworth through whom so many dramatic miracles were performed...yet he himself had gall stones which was a serious condition in those days....his daughter was as deaf as a post.

No people do not understand the cross...most definitely not.

The answer is to believe God's word and trust HIM no matter what....if I were on my death bed I would believe that Christ bore my sickness...but I would trust HIM.

Jesus saves, we don't have to know any more than that to get saved, we can learn all else later.

Did you read Paul when speaking to Tim about his tummy? he says a strange thing...."Some men's sin are open beforehand, going before in judgement and some they follow after."

Go with the weight of scripture, it is on the side of healing and not sickness.

But look here the church is not in the condition it was in at the time of Acts...the church was set up for healing, people had the gifts of healing and miracles, so whatever is happening today, unless the church gets back to apostolic purity we can't expect to see full apostolic power.

 

[Aimiel]

Healing is called: "The Children's Bread," in Scripture. Jesus never qualified anyone before He healed them. He told us to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out demons. We should be about our Father's Business.

 

[Livelystone]

Hi,
I'm interested to find out opinions on the question: Is healing in the atonement or not? What do you think? I myself have been healed of insulin dependent diabetes but I don't think it was in the atonement. I could be wrong of course but I believe healing to be a sovereign act of God.
Pete

Our receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit includes conformation coming from some sort of gift from God that can only come from Him. While a gift of "tongues" happens frequently, others can and do receive different gifts that may well include a gift of the healing of an ailment.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Healing is called: "The Children's Bread," in Scripture. Jesus never qualified anyone before He healed them. He told us to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out demons. We should be about our Father's Business.

Unbelief causes hardness of heart.

 

[revpete]

Or vice versa

 

[revpete]

Our receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit includes conformation coming from some sort of gift from God that can only come from Him. While a gift of "tongues" happens frequently, others can and do receive different gifts that may well include a gift of the healing of an ailment.

Yes, that's possible but nothing to do with the original question.

Pete

 

[revpete]

Healing is called: "The Children's Bread," in Scripture. Jesus never qualified anyone before He healed them. He told us to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out demons. We should be about our Father's Business.

Meaning in that verse, the Jews. Incidentally, when was the last time God used you to raise the dead? Our Father's business is more than healing.

Pete

 

[revpete]

Yes there are all those things, but people also sin...sometimes greviously. And the human heart can be extremely wayward with God, even your Smith Wigglesworth through whom so many dramatic miracles were performed...yet he himself had gall stones which was a serious condition in those days....his daughter was as deaf as a post.

No people do not understand the cross...most definitely not.

The answer is to believe God's word and trust HIM no matter what....if I were on my death bed I would believe that Christ bore my sickness...but I would trust HIM.

Jesus saves, we don't have to know any more than that to get saved, we can learn all else later.

Did you read Paul when speaking to Tim about his tummy? he says a strange thing...."Some men's sin are open beforehand, going before in judgement and some they follow after."

Go with the weight of scripture, it is on the side of healing and not sickness.

But look here the church is not in the condition it was in at the time of Acts...the church was set up for healing, people had the gifts of healing and miracles, so whatever is happening today, unless the church gets back to apostolic purity we can't expect to see full apostolic power.

Don't misunderstand me, I believe wholeheartedly in Divine healing, after all I've experienced it. I just don't see it in the atonement Biblically, historically or experientially.

The church was not set up for healing but preach the gospel as per the great commission. Healing confirms the gospel but is not primary.

Pete

 

[Nick M]

Your intent is to remove faith as a condition.

What condition? He has dealt each a measure of faith so that when they hear the gospel (faith comes by hearing) they know it is true. All are on record for believing or rejecting the offer. All are without excuse.