Have I gone MAD???

[Jerry Shugart]

Because there are two groups of believers and it does not matter with regards to being "in Christ" which one that they are in.

According to your teaching there are THREE groups of believers.

One group of believers are the Gentiles and they are all in the Body of Christ.

Another group is the Jews who are in the Body of Christ.

The third group are the Jews who are not in the Body.

Why are one group of Jewish believers in the Body and another group of Jewish believers who are not in the Body?

In other words, what determined which Jewish believer was in the Body and the other not?

You must know, don't you?

 

[Right Divider]

Here is what Paul said at a later time:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:5).​

Why did you ignore the Savior Himself telling the questioner to "keep the commandments" to get eternal life?

I guess that's not one of the lovely cherries that you like to pick.

Why do you SKIP AHEAD to Paul? Don't you believe all of the scripture?

And here is what Paul said about trying to establish one's own righteousnness by keeping the law:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).​

Why did the Savior Himself say?:

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Don't just play Bible hopscotch... deal with ALL of the scripture.

If law keeping was a requirement for those under the law then none of them would be saved because "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident."

Then why didn't the Savior Himself say that in Matthew 19?

We need to be careful not to read the future back into the past.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know that you and Catholicism differ in many ways, but your posts that I've commented on are where you and Catholicism do agree.

Idolater, you said "Amen" to what I wrote earlier so I can only think that you agree with what I wrote earlier:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Those who were believing in Him died " physically" so when He said that "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" He must have been speaking of another kind of death, the "second death":

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev.20:14).​

Those who believe in the Lord Jesus will never be cast into the lake of fire. They will always be saved:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

​

Again, since you said "Amen" to that I concluded that you agree with it. The words of the Lord Jesus at John 11:25-26 indicate that faith and faith alone is all that is need to be saved and to enyoy eternal security.

​

However, the teaching of Rome directly contradict that words of the Lord Jesus:

"The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.'" (CCC # 2068).​

Idolater, who are you going to believe, the Lord Jesus Christ or the church at Rome?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why did you ignore the Savior Himself telling the questioner to "keep the commandments" to get eternal life?

I didn't ignore what the Lord Jesus said. What He said was asolutely correct. If a person keeps the law PERFECTLY he will inherit eternal life. But if he sins, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then he is absolutely dependent on the grace of God.

Why do you SKIP AHEAD to Paul? Don't you believe all of the scripture?

I believe all the Scriptures, but in the Scriptures there is progressive revelation. And Paul said the following in regard to "the law" and how it related to "righteousness":

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:5).​

Of course you didn't address what I said here:

And here is what Paul said about trying to establish one's own righteousnness by keeping the law:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).​

If law keeping was a requirement for those under the law then none of them would be saved because "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident."

Here is how David, who lived under the law, was saved:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:6-7).​

According to your ideas David could not be saved without works but Paul declares in no uncertain terms that God imputed righteousness to him without works.

We need to be careful not to read the future back into the past.

We need to be careful not to IGNORE what the Lord Jesus said, in the past, to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

For some reason the truth which He spoke there is hidden from your eyes.

 

[Right Divider]

According to your teaching there are THREE groups of believers.

Why do you constantly stoop to lying about my position? Very dishonest Jerry.

One group of believers are the Gentiles and they are all in the Body of Christ.

Another group is the Jews who are in the Body of Christ.

Disgusting Jerry, that you think that I split the ONE BODY in two.

The third group are the Jews who are not in the Body.

LIES Jerry.... just LIES...

There are two groups of believers:

1. Believing Jews and Gentiles in the nation of Israel.
2. Believers in the body of Christ where there is no Jew nor Greek.

Why are one group of Jewish believers in the Body and another group of Jewish believers who are not in the Body?

You call yourself a dispensationalist and YET you do not know the answer to this question? Looks like you're actually a poser.

In other words, what determined which Jewish believer was in the Body and the other not?

The dispensation under which they are saved.

You must know, don't you?

I do; you should but apparently don't.

I think that you're actually MAAD (Mid Acts Anti-Dispensational).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why do you constantly stoop to lying about my position? Very dishonest Jerry.

According to you there are THREE groups of believers at the time when Paul wrote his epistles.

There was one group which consisted of Gentile believers and they were all baptized into the Body of Christ.

There was one group of Jewish believers who were baptized into the Body of Christ.

Then there was another group of Jewish believers who were not baptized in the Body of Christ.

Do you deny that there were both Jews and Gentles who were baptized into the Body of Christ?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

I asked:

In other words, what determined which Jewish believer was in the Body and the other not?
​

To this you answered:

The dispensation under which they are saved.

Where is your evidence from the Scriptures?

 

[Right Divider]

According to you there are THREE groups of believers at the time when Paul wrote his epistles.

There was one group which consisted of Gentile believers and they were all baptized into the Body of Christ.

There was one group of Jewish believers who were baptized into the Body of Christ.

Then there was another group of Jewish believers who were not baptized in the Body of Christ.

Wow... just repeating the lie over and over.... you are a LIAR and your DISHONESTY is amazing.

AGAIN... there are NOT THREE groups.

Do you deny that there were both Jews and Gentles who were baptized into the Body of Christ?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Some Jews and Gentiles.... not ALL Jews and Gentiles.

Some Jews and Gentiles were ALREADY believers and are not in the body of Christ, like the twelve.

You take passages that are SPECIFICALLY about the body of Christ and try to PROJECT that onto all believers in other dispensations.

1Co 12:12-14 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many.

That passage is SPECIFICALLY talking about the body of Christ, and not all believers who ever lived.

 

[Idolater]

Idolater, you said "Amen" to what I wrote earlier so I can only think that you agree with what I wrote earlier: ... Again, since you said "Amen" to that I concluded that you agree with it. The words of the Lord Jesus at John 11:25-26 indicate that faith and faith alone is all that is need to be saved and to enyoy eternal security.

Yes, I do agree, and so does Catholicism.

However, the teaching of Rome directly contradict that words of the Lord Jesus:

"The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.'" (CCC # 2068).​

Idolater, who are you going to believe, the Lord Jesus Christ or the church at Rome?

I see it as a false dilemma. I don't see in the text you quoted from the Catechism (and b t w, thank you for quoting the Catechism, as most Noncatholics fail to grasp that quoting just anything that a pope or a bishop said, in various documents, is not the same as quoting the Catechism, which contains all the infallible teachings of the Church) a contradiction. The Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians, surely you agree that Christians ought not murder, commit adultery, bear false witness, or steal. The teachings on the three enumerated things there, "faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments" are elaborated in other texts of the Catechism, and in sum, Catholicism teaches that salvation is through faith in Christ, and that alone. This is the case because Catholicism believes that Noncatholic Christians who believe in Christ are authentic Christians, even though they are not in full communion with the Church. Full communion has to do with converting to Catholicism and abstaining from grave sins (such as some of the Ten Commandments), and seeking reconciliation when you do commit grave sin before receiving Communion again. And while Baptism is certainly the authorized sacrament of initiation into the faith, the teaching on Baptism makes it clear that it is the intent that counts, and that intent comes from an authentic faith in Christ, as risen and as the Son of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Wow... just repeating the lie over and over.... you are a LIAR and your DISHONESTY is amazing.

AGAIN... there are NOT THREE groups.

Let us look at this verse again:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

You realize that both Jewish believers and Gentile believers were baptized into the Body of Christ. In case you can't count, that is TWO different groups of people who were baptized into the Body of Christ.

Then there was a THIRD group of believers, and according to you that group was Jewish believers who were not baptized into the Body of Christ.

I state the obvious and you call me a liar. I can't help it if you cannot understand that one plus one plus one equals three.

Some Jews and Gentiles were ALREADY believers and are not in the body of Christ, like the twelve.

You take passages that are SPECIFICALLY about the body of Christ and try to PROJECT that onto all believers in other dispensations.

I do not project all believers from all time into the Body of Christ. I have already given evidencethat you were unable to answer that there were believers in the Body of Christ before Paul was, as witnessed by his following words here:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

The following verse speaks of the Body being "in Christ":

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

You still have not given any evidence from the Scriptures to back up your claim that only some of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ but not all of them.

 

[Right Divider]

Let us look at this verse again:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Instead of CHERRY-PICKING a SINGLE verse, how about we take the ENTIRE CONTEXT of the passage into account.

1Co 12:12-14 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many.

Paul is SPECIFICALLY talking about the BODY OF CHRIST in that PASSAGE and therefore also in the verse that you take out of its context.

The WE in verse 13 is SPECIFICALLY the BODY OF CHRIST.

If you cannot tell the difference between the calling of the twelve and the calling of Paul.... well then shame on you.

 

[Lon]

I know that you and Catholicism differ in many ways, but your posts that I've commented on are where you and Catholicism do agree.

Roughly 80 to 90% of doctrine is held in common. As church history progressed, there were differences between, for instance, Augustine's Scripture primacy vs. Church primacy. Indulgences were seen as 'absolution' of and from sin{s} and the Catholic understanding of "once for all" is caught up and confused by 'work(s) in progress.'

 

[Idolater]

Roughly 80 to 90% of doctrine is held in common.

Sure, more or less.

As church history progressed, there were differences between, for instance, Augustine's Scripture primacy vs. Church primacy.

Augustine was a bishop in communion with the pope, he never believed that the authentic, Apostolic pastorates were somehow usurped by a non-bishop interpreting the Scripture for and by themselves.

Indulgences were seen as 'absolution' of and from sin{s}

The abuses of indulgences were abuses, it is granted. And indulgences are the forgiveness of temporal punishments and penalties for our sins. Whereas eternal salvation can be thought of, although it's never taught this way, as an eternal plenary indulgence.

and the Catholic understanding of "once for all" is caught up and confused by 'work(s) in progress.'

There isn't confusion. Sins are divided by "weight", the serious sins are grave matter and the lighter sins are forgiven /venial automatically. (In addition but off topic, licitly receiving Communion cleanses us of the temporal penalties of our venial sins.) Committing grave sins breaks communion with the Church, and requires confession and absolution to be reconciled before receiving Communion again, which protects the Eucharist and the Church against being sullied, and protects the sinner against the warnings given by e.g. Paul, who wrote about being in a unworthy state and about examining ourselves before eating the bread and drinking the cup.

 

[Right Divider]

The abuses of indulgences were abuses, it is granted. And indulgences are the forgiveness of temporal punishments and penalties for our sins. Whereas eternal salvation can be thought of, although it's never taught this way, as an eternal plenary indulgence.

Anti-Biblical horrible no good doctrine!

But very typical of RCC doctrine.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The WE in verse 13 is SPECIFICALLY the BODY OF CHRIST.

The "we" refers to all those to whom the epistle was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle.

According to your ideas neither the Apostle John nor the Apostle Peter are members of the Body so if you are right they did NOT call on the name of the Lord Jesus. That is ridiculous!

 

[Right Divider]

The "we" refers to all those to whom the epistle was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle.

According to your ideas neither the Apostle John nor the Apostle Peter are members of the Body so if you are right they did NOT call on the name of the Lord Jesus. That is ridiculous!

In that SPECIFIC passage WE refers to the BODY.

If you cannot tell the difference between the calling of the twelve and the calling of Paul....well ... shame on you.

One of the GIANTS of MAD says that Paul was the first member of the body of Christ.... why do you NOW reject this GIANT of MAD?

The twelve's calling is to lead Israel in the earthly kingdom; the calling of Paul is NOT the same.

You're much like the "one gospel" people.... forcing everyone into the body of Christ as if that is the only place for believers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

...it is not the same as quoting the Catechism, which contains all the infallible teachings of the Church) a contradiction. The Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians...

Rome is not infallible because the Scriptures declare that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Gentiles:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Ro.2:14-15).​

The term "the law" refers to the Ten Commandments found within the Mosaic Covenant and the Gentiles do not have that law. The Lord Jesus told the Jews the following:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn.1:17). ​

If Gentiles were given the Ten Commandments then they should keep the Sabbath (Saturday)--Ex.20:8--but Christians do not keep the Sabbath.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In that SPECIFIC passage WE refers to the BODY.

If you cannot tell the difference between the calling of the twelve and the calling of Paul....well ... shame on you.

Shame on you for teaching that neither the Apostle Peter nor the Apostle John called on the name of the Lord Jesus!

You run and hide from every passage which contradicts your ideas.

 

[Right Divider]

Shame on you for teaching that neither the Apostle Peter nor the Apostle John called on the name of the Lord Jesus!

For a supposed Christian, you sure do LIE A LOT!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For a supposed Christian, you sure do LIE A LOT!

Of course since you cannot answer the verses which I quoted that totally destroy your teaching you call me a liar on the hope no one will notice that you run and hide from all of those verses. In regard to the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law all yoiu did was accuse me of cherry picking it:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Those words TOTALLY destroy your teaching that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from the works of the law. You refused to say anything about those words of the Savior Himself and all you did was accuse me of cherry picking His words--as if His words mean nothing since I cherry picked them.

All you prove to me is the fact that you call yourself a Christian but you refuse to believe His plain words. You prove that you hate me but what you really hate are His words which contradict your petty ideas!

 

[Right Divider]

Of course since you cannot answer the verses which I quoted that totally destroy your teaching you call me a liar on the hope no one will notice that you run and hide from all of those verses. In regard to the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law all yoiu did was accuse me of cherry picking it:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Those words TOTALLY destroy your teaching that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from the works of the law. You refused to say anything about those words of the Savior Himself and all you did was accuse me of cherry picking His words--as if His words mean nothing since I cherry picked them.

All you prove to me is the fact that you call yourself a Christian but you refuse to believe His plain words. You prove that you hate me but what you really hate are His words which contradict your petty ideas!

Cherry-picker... pick your cherries and ignore the rest. Stop lying Jerry, it's very unbecoming a Christian.