Have I gone MAD???

[Idolater]

I don't care to discuss Arianism.

We're not discussing Arianism. We're discussing anti-Biblicalism, which was YOUR idea to discuss it. Why, according to you, are Arianism and "RCC" anti-Biblical? Let's see if MAD passes your own test? for what is anti-Biblical? If you can.

 

[Right Divider]

We're not discussing Arianism. We're discussing anti-Biblicalism, which was YOUR idea to discuss it. Why, according to you, are Arianism and "RCC" anti-Biblical? Let's see if MAD passes your own test? for what is anti-Biblical? If you can.

The RCC is NOT the continuation of Israel.
The body of Christ is a NEW creature... you should join.

 

[Idolater]

The RCC is NOT the continuation of Israel.
The body of Christ is a NEW creature... you should join.

Again, non-responsive. What makes "RCC" or Arianism anti-Biblical, according to you? You can't and won't say, because you're going to rule out MAD too.

Fact.

 

[Right Divider]

Again, non-responsive. What makes "RCC" or Arianism anti-Biblical, according to you? You can't and won't say, because you're going to rule out MAD too.

Fact.

There is no such thing as a "Pope". That is anti-Biblical.

There are TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

Peter was ONE of the TWELVE.

Paul is that other, different apostle.

 

[Idolater]

There is no such thing as a "Pope". That is anti-Biblical.

There are TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

Peter was ONE of the TWELVE.

Paul is that other, different apostle.

Non-responsive.

 

[Clete]

At the end of the day the Berean method of examining the Scriptures to see if what someone says is true (up to and including an Apostle), is the Protestant Reformation, Lutheran (not the denomination but the man), Calvinist (not the branch of Christian theology but the man), Evangelical Sola Scriptura method.

It's ultimately about induction, and systematic induction at that, of the entire Christian Bible. Well except for seven books, which only are printed in Catholic Bibles, some modern Evangelical translations, and many older Bibles had them printed together, but they were gathered together into one section called the Apocryhpa, but most modern printers simply delete the "Apocrypha" (aka deuterocanon or deuterocanonical); they just don't provide these seven books to you.

But regardless the Sola Scriptura method is about induction, where the facts or raw data are the Scriptures themselves. Inductively then the task is to derive or determine or discern or interpret or understand or conceive of the deep structure of the Bible, to steal or borrow a term from linguistics.

Without this work we just say the Bible is God's Word and is infallible, but JW's say the same thing.

So the inductive work leads us to different branches of Christian theology, like Calvinism, JWism (modern Arians), Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, etc. All the isms are different takes with different narratives of what is ultimately an inductive investigation, where we're trying to discern the deep structure of the Scripture, which is what we each conceive of as the ontological truth of God.

But it's almost like Evangelicals leave out the fact of the story of the Bereans where it all began with a proposed teaching, it was what Paul was preaching to them. They went and checked on him, using the Scriptures (undoubtedly the Greek Septuagint since they were not in Palestine), but they did not linger there and inductively determine what the Scriptures actually say systemically. They just accepted Paul as speaking the truth of God to them, and listened to him.

The idea of starting from scratch, from a Cartesian skepticism, and building up from zero, is not found in the Bible anywhere, and certainly not in the story of the Bereans. They didn't create a systematic theology from whole cloth like you all are doing and trying to do. They started with Apostolic teaching.

Such artful rationalization one hardly ever sees!

In short, Idolater takes this....

"they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11b)

...and managed to turn it into...

"they received the word with all readiness, and searched their doctrine daily to find out whether these things were so."

 

[glorydaz]

Such artful rationalization one hardly ever sees!

In short, Idolater takes this....

"they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11b)

...and managed to turn it into...

"they received the word with all readiness, and searched their doctrine daily to find out whether these things were so."

I was a Catholic, went to Catholic school, and never once picked up the Bible. It’s sad.

 

[Lon]

Again, non-responsive. What makes "RCC" or Arianism anti-Biblical, according to you? You can't and won't say, because you're going to rule out MAD too.

Fact.

Very briefly:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
(It is the weakness of the law that causes the need for a mediator) then:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(very clearly, the end of the priesthood)
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

When you have a priest, you have another than the Lord Jesus Christ between you and Jesus Christ and you have a "Father" between you and God where it is also forbidden, specifically because the old is passed away. The problem with the Catholic Church is that there are many between them and the Son, and between the Father.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus

There are major problems and concerns from even wanting to go back. The whole book of Hebrews should be a primer for all Catholics who are very near, too near Judaism in worship.

 

[Idolater]

Very briefly:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
(It is the weakness of the law that causes the need for a mediator) then:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(very clearly, the end of the priesthood)

It is very clearly the end of the OLD priesthood, as plenty of other Hebrews passages prove. Christ Himself is our High Priest. It isn't the end of "the priesthood", but the beginning of His everlasting priesthood—in the order of Melchizedek, who ministered with bread and wine.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

When you have a priest, you have another than the Lord Jesus Christ between you and Jesus Christ and you have a "Father" between you and God where it is also forbidden, specifically because the old is passed away. The problem with the Catholic Church is that there are many between them and the Son, and between the Father.

We are all priests, whether common, or ministerial. Christ is our High Priest.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus

There are major problems and concerns from even wanting to go back. The whole book of Hebrews should be a primer for all Catholics who are very near, too near Judaism in worship.

All of the warnings are consistent with accepting that the Old Covenant is fulfilled and amended in the New Covenant. Which is what Roman or Papal Catholicism is.

 

[Clete]

Very briefly:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
(It is the weakness of the law that causes the need for a mediator) then:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(very clearly, the end of the priesthood)
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

When you have a priest, you have another than the Lord Jesus Christ between you and Jesus Christ and you have a "Father" between you and God where it is also forbidden, specifically because the old is passed away. The problem with the Catholic Church is that there are many between them and the Son, and between the Father.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus

There are major problems and concerns from even wanting to go back. The whole book of Hebrews should be a primer for all Catholics who are very near, too near Judaism in worship.

EXCELLENT POST!

 

[Clete]

It is very clearly the end of the OLD priesthood, as plenty of other Hebrews passages prove. Christ Himself is our High Priest. It isn't the end of "the priesthood", but the beginning of His everlasting priesthood—in the order of Melchizedek, who ministered with bread and wine.



We are all priests, whether common, or ministerial. Christ is our High Priest.



All of the warnings are consistent with accepting that the Old Covenant is fulfilled and amended in the New Covenant. Which is what Roman or Papal Catholicism is.

Anyone care to take bets on whether Idolater will concede that Lon failed to "rule out MAD" as he claimed would happen?

What's amusing (to me at least) is that by Idolaters own non-MAD premise, the book of Hebrews crushes Catholic doctrines and practices concerning their priesthood and that everything he said in the above post is just rationalizing away what the obvious message of Hebrews is. In other words, whether dispensationalism or covenant theology, Catholicism is unbiblical from either paradigm! That's seems to me like a fairly tough trick to pull off!

 

[Right Divider]

It is very clearly the end of the OLD priesthood, as plenty of other Hebrews passages prove. Christ Himself is our High Priest.

Since the body of Christ has no priesthood, that is false.

We are all priests, whether common, or ministerial.

Since the body of Christ has no priesthood, that is false.

Christ is our High Priest.

Since the body of Christ has no priesthood, that is false.

All of the warnings are consistent with accepting that the Old Covenant is fulfilled and amended in the New Covenant. Which is what Roman or Papal Catholicism is.

Since the body of Christ is not in the new covenant, that is nonsense.

 

[Clete]

Since the body of Christ has no priesthood, that is false.

Since the body of Christ has no priesthood, that is false.

Since the body of Christ has no priesthood, that is false.

Since the body of Christ is not in the new covenant, that is nonsense.

AMEN!

We are identified in God Himself!

No need for ANY priest. No mortal mediator of any kind. We are hidden in Him and the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes on our behalf.

 

[Right Divider]

AMEN!

We are identified in God Himself!

No need for ANY priest. No mediator of any kind. We are hidden in Him and the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes on our behalf.

Here is another single verse that refutes the RCC completely!

1Tim 2:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:5) For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; ​

 

[Clete]

Here is another single verse that refutes the RCC completely!

1Tim 2:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:5) For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; ​

Excellent verse. I added the word "mortal" to my post to add clarity.

 

[Lon]

It is very clearly the end of the OLD priesthood, as plenty of other Hebrews passages prove. Christ Himself is our High Priest. It isn't the end of "the priesthood", but the beginning of His everlasting priesthood—in the order of Melchizedek, who ministered with bread and wine.



We are all priests, whether common, or ministerial. Christ is our High Priest.

In only the sense that we minister Jesus (the only High Priest). This is taken much too far by the Catholic Church. They (and you) simply do not grasp something incredibly important and intimated in Hebrews all over the place:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus

In a couple of words: Catholics do not have the intimate relationship with Christ because they have go-betweens who, as Hebrews says, have frailties. Hebrews warns against this in no uncertain terms and says flatly it is wrong. It is like anybody who is a Catholic is afraid, himself, to enter the Holy of Holies. Ultimately, there is no shield between you and Christ, the Spirit, and Father. We are responsible and no appeal to a 'higher' authority interceding will be of value. A Catholic has many blocks set up between them and the Savior. Peter was the rock, not as a priest for the church, but because He lifted Jesus. He was not a priest of the new church. Most of them went home, rather the prophecy/purpose of "Rock" was where Jews became Christians. Acts is an important book. I recommend you read it and Hebrews like a good Berean and search these things out.

All of the warnings are consistent with accepting that the Old Covenant is fulfilled and amended in the New Covenant. Which is what Roman or Papal Catholicism is.

I'm sorry, it is Judaism for gentiles. Hebrews is replete with warnings and directions of how to live. Read it as a Catholic and pray through it with/for me.

 

[Idolater]

In only the sense that we minister Jesus (the only High Priest).

That's what I said.

This is taken much too far by the Catholic Church. They (and you) simply do not grasp something incredibly important and intimated in Hebrews all over the place:

Says you. And the Scriptures you quote are consonant with Roman or Papal Catholicism.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus

In a couple of words: Catholics do not have the intimate relationship with Christ

Disagreed. We literally consume Jesus. You could conceive of greater intimacy, but consuming Someone is certainly top tier intimacy.

because they have go-betweens who, as Hebrews says, have frailties.

Who?

Hebrews warns against this in no uncertain terms and says flatly it is wrong.

Agreed that Hebrews claims the Old Levitical priesthood is fulfilled.

It is like anybody who is a Catholic is afraid, himself, to enter the Holy of Holies.

The Holy of Holies is Christ in the Eucharist.

Ultimately, there is no shield between you and Christ, the Spirit, and Father.

That's what we believe.

We are responsible and no appeal to a 'higher' authority interceding will be of value.

I'm not sure what you mean, this doesn't resonate with anything Catholic. Unless you're talking about asking the Saints in Heaven to intercede, with intercessory prayer? But that's not appealing to a higher authority in any sense.

A Catholic has many blocks set up between them and the Savior.

No we don't. See above, about consuming Him.

Peter was the rock, not as a priest for the church, but because He lifted Jesus. He was not a priest of the new church.

He was the vicar of Christ Who is in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father rn. He held the office which Christ Himself set up.

Most of them went home, rather the prophecy/purpose of "Rock" was where Jews became Christians.

What do you mean? As far as the Rock which Christ built His Church on, again, this is the office which Peter first held.

Acts is an important book. I recommend you read it and Hebrews like a good Berean and search these things out.

I did, numerous times, what exactly do you think I missed?

I'm sorry, it is Judaism for gentiles.

It is the New Covenant. It is for everyone.

Hebrews is replete with warnings and directions of how to live.

Sure, such as going to Mass, and keeping the marriage bed pure.

Read it as a Catholic and pray through it with/for me.

I pray for you.

 

[Lon]

That's what I said.



Says you. And the Scriptures you quote are consonant with Roman or Papal Catholicism.



Disagreed. We literally consume Jesus. You could conceive of greater intimacy, but consuming Someone is certainly top tier intimacy.

Not really. It is 'magic' as Catholics observe it. Consuming Jesus is trying to live in Him, daily. The other is symbolic, a remembrance. The way Catholics do Eucharist is the same way they do confession to the Priest: twice removed from the Savior in round-about ways.
When Jesus broke bread and passed wine, He gave just bread and just wine. If you cringe, I understand in the sense that we want to be consumed with Jesus, but such informs our every waking hours with the Holy Spirit indwelling, prodding, moving, interceding as a Dweller in our lives. If you run to the symbolic, it becomes mystery rather than a practicality and intimate relationship.

Agreed that Hebrews claims the Old Levitical priesthood is fulfilled.

Yet Catholics call their pastors "Priests, Father."

The Holy of Holies is Christ in the Eucharist.



That's what we believe.

I used to be Catholic, very long ago. Was United Methodist for 14 years (had to leave with gay pastors). Been with Evangelical churches ever since.

What do you mean? As far as the Rock which Christ built His Church on, again, this is the office which Peter first held.

A go-between God and man, forbidden.

I did, numerous times, what exactly do you think I missed?

There were 7 churches in Revelation. Eastern Orthodox could be argued to be older than Catholics. The main point is that there was not one ultimate church but in Christ alone.

I pray for you.

Thank you.

 

[Idolater]

Not really.

Yes really.

It is 'magic' as Catholics observe it.

Miracle.

Consuming Jesus is trying to live in Him, daily.

It begins with literally consuming Him.

The other is symbolic, a remembrance.

The Eucharist being only symbolic, only a remembrance, is novelty in Church history, only seriously countenanced after the Reformation in the 1500s. Before that, only by heretics.

The way Catholics do Eucharist is the same way they do confession to the Priest: twice removed from the Savior in round-about ways.

Impossible to literally consume Jesus and do it twice removed and in round-about ways.
Also you misunderstand confession. It is exorcistic.

When Jesus broke bread and passed wine, He gave just bread and just wine.

Says you. And no one else until the 1500s.

If you cringe, I understand in the sense that we want to be consumed with Jesus, but such informs our every waking hours with the Holy Spirit indwelling, prodding, moving, interceding as a Dweller in our lives.

I claim the same exact thing.

If you run to the symbolic, it becomes mystery rather than a practicality and intimate relationship.

I don't understand what you mean. Catholics "run" to the literal, and the Eucharist is still mystery, and practical, and an intimate relationship.

Yet Catholics call their pastors "Priests, Father."

And? We are all priests, whether ministerial priests like bishops, or common priests like the faithful.
Also Paul called himself Father, because he was the father of the Corinthians and others, in the faith. Same idea.

I used to be Catholic, very long ago. Was United Methodist for 14 years (had to leave with gay pastors). Been with Evangelical churches ever since.

Born and raised Evangelical myself. Been here and there before I found out Roman Catholicism or Papal Catholicism is Jesus's religion.

A go-between God and man, forbidden.

How do you understand the pope being a go-between?

There were 7 churches in Revelation.

And one of them was Ephesus, and we have Ephesians, where Paul explains that Gentiles are fellow heirs with the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Eastern Orthodox could be argued to be older than Catholics.

Contemporaneously, never older. And "could be argued" is key. The argument fails.

The main point is that there was not one ultimate church but in Christ alone.

False dichotomy.

Thank you.

ofc.

 

[Lon]

Yes really.

No. I've been Catholic.

It begins with literally consuming Him.

This says a lot, about you and Catholics, are in fact desirous to be Catholics. There is no literal eating of flesh. The disciples didn't become cannibals! Next, there is no benefit even to your flesh to espouse the ridiculous. I left Catholicism far behind because of the fantasy, mystery, mythology that gets it all wrong.

The Eucharist being only symbolic, only a remembrance, is novelty in Church history, only seriously countenanced after the Reformation in the 1500s. Before that, only by heretics.

It is a beautiful service but ultimately problematic in conveyance.

Impossible to literally consume Jesus and do it twice removed and in round-about ways.
Also you misunderstand confession. It is exorcistic.

It is a mediator between God and man and between Christ. It removes you from intimacy, interrupts what is Christ's alone.

Says you. And no one else until the 1500s.

Coping at this point.

I claim the same exact thing.



I don't understand what you mean. Catholics "run" to the literal, and the Eucharist is still mystery, and practical, and an intimate relationship.

No, it is a showy stand-between. It is going back to Judaism.

And? We are all priests, whether ministerial priests like bishops, or common priests like the faithful.
Also Paul called himself Father, because he was the father of the Corinthians and others, in the faith. Same idea.

No, in fact. He didn't Lord it over them in the least and would be horrified if someone prayed to him instead of God.

Born and raised Evangelical myself. Been here and there before I found out Roman Catholicism or Papal Catholicism is Jesus's religion.

In effect, Judaized. Catholics have a larger Bible, most rely on their priests for understanding and apply as much of the OT and Apocrypha as they can, effectually Judaizing themselves which Galatians warns against.

How do you understand the pope being a go-between?

1) No longer will you need one to say to you 'Know the Lord" from the least to the greatest.
2) Only one Mediator between God and men, the Lord Jesus Christ
3) The veil has been taken away, but not for them that use it still.

And one of them was Ephesus, and we have Ephesians, where Paul explains that Gentiles are fellow heirs with the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Heirs does not mean 'are' and this is where great mistakes and assumptions begin.

Contemporaneously, never older. And "could be argued" is key. The argument fails.

Entertain that this is what they'd have you believe. The Eastern churches were indeed first. Christianity was born in the East.

False dichotomy.

This is another problem with Catholicism: They are always confusing the difference between physical and spiritual. There is no need for the wine and bread to become physically literal flesh and blood, else we'd eat our Catholic priests when they died. It isn't at all what scripture ever meant. Wooden literalism, confusion in mixing Judaism, becoming in an odd sense Messianic Jews: All this is a confusion of celebration rather than knowledge of what is actual. Traditions, observances, and ceremony have obscured the relationship between God and man and have left the congregation running to them instead of entering the Holy of Holies themselves. The run to the showy instead of the throne of God. I realize there is spendor that does this having been in many Catholic churches, causing a sense of awe and reverence, but when that gets in the way of God, it is an echo of embrace rather than direct. It is the 'in-between' that causes the problem. I've no doubt a good many Catholics know the Lord, but they are handicapped doing the Rosery, going to the confessional, etc.

ofc.

Praying for one another, Lon