ECT Hades / The Grave

[ttruscott]

Well, with that attitude I guess I won't even bother showing you the scriptures because you've already decided that, no matter what I show you, it doesn't support universalism.

Sigh. How do you people expect to learn anything? It boggles the mind.

A bit late sonny...My faith is 30 years old. I've given thoughtful and prayerful attention to the doctrines of Christ and made my decision. You are not my teacher and your arrogance that you speak the truth and not an interpretation of the truth is all too common, not special.

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Hades / The Grave

.
● Rev 20:14 . .Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

Webster's-- in so many words --defines "death" as not only the state or the condition of something deceased, but also anything life-threatening, i.e. deadly, lethal, and/or fatal.

The removal of all hazards that have the potential to kill; assures that the future cosmos will be 100% safe and secure.

● Rev 21:4-5 . .There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said: I am making everything new!
_

 

[Freedm]

I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?

That's an interesting take on it, and I appreciate your outside the box thinking, however the other possibility is that the imagery we see in Revelation 20, that of death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire, is nothing more than literary symbolism for the "end of" death and Hades, as technically and specifically death "ends" when all are resurrected on the last day.

In other words, the very act of giving us back our breath of life, is the end of death. These are not two separate actions or events, but rather one singular event with two results. It's like drying your dishes by removing the water. When you've finished drying the dishes, the dishes are dry and also the water is gone. Two results, from a single event.

 

[Freedm]

I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?

Keep in mind that Hades is a word that is simply used to label the state of death, or the place of the dead, but when I say "the place" I don't mean a physical location where people go; rather "going to Hades" is akin to "going to sleep". It's not a literal place, but rather a state of being. Also keep in mind that we all go to Hades when we die, not only the wicked.

The translation into "hell", like what the KJV does, is very misleading especially considering the pop culture definition of hell. It's interesting to note that the KJV translates Hades in to "hell" when it speaks of wicked people, but translates that same word into "grave" when it speaks of the righteous. That's a definite bias which reinforces the stereotypical ideas around hell.

For example:

Matthew 11:23 (KJV)
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (Hades)

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it.

1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV)
O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Hades), where is thy victory?

The NKJV leaves it simply as Hades in all cases.

The NIV is all over the map, translating the first example as "depths", the second as "Hades" and the third as "death", although those three are arguably the same thing.

There are similar inconsistencies in the translations of the words Gehenna and Sheol.

 

[Freedm]

A bit late sonny...My faith is 30 years old. I've given thoughtful and prayerful attention to the doctrines of Christ and made my decision. You are not my teacher and your arrogance that you speak the truth and not an interpretation of the truth is all too common, not special.

Does your faith being 30 years old preclude any new learning? If so, at what point are our beliefs "locked in"? At 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

 

[Freedm]

A bit late sonny...My faith is 30 years old. I've given thoughtful and prayerful attention to the doctrines of Christ and made my decision. You are not my teacher and your arrogance that you speak the truth and not an interpretation of the truth is all too common, not special.

I guess you failed to notice that I not once claimed that I believe in universalism, or that it's the truth. I merely said early Christians believed it and there's plenty of scripture in the Bible to support it. Enough evidence in fact that I think it's worth exploring, especially considering the conundrum of a loving God choosing to eternally torture his own creation.

 

[Freedm]

.
● Rev 20:14 . .Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

Webster's-- in so many words --defines "death" as not only the state or the condition of something deceased, but also anything life-threatening, i.e. deadly, lethal, and/or fatal.

The removal of all hazards that have the potential to kill; assures that the future cosmos will be 100% safe and secure.

Interesting, but what do you mean by "hazards"? Do you mean like knives, guns, anvils? Or do you mean sin?

 

[way 2 go]

I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?

There is
1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
2 physical death Mat 8:22
3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
4 death as a place Rev 20:13
5 death as a person Rev 6:8

 

[way 2 go]

Tell me, how do you reconcile your doctrine with Genesis 3:19?

"For dust you are and to dust you shall return".

Let me guess. You're going to insert the words "your body" somewhere in there. Am I right? You know if you have to insert words, you're on the wrong track.

physical death

There is
1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
2 physical death Mat 8:22
3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
4 death as a place Rev 20:13
5 death as a person Rev 6:8




here we have physical death, spiritual death & death as a place.

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

 

[way 2 go]

Huh?

since you were not persuaded by Jesus resurrection , you won't hear me

Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ...

Luk 16:31 And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Hades / The Grave

.

what do you mean by "hazards"? Do you mean like knives, guns, anvils? Or do you mean sin?

The tool most utilized in the Bible to represent death is the sword. However, at Rev 6:8, death and the sword are distinctly individual.

The name of the rider on the pallid horse is Death; he and hades are closely associated in Rev 6:8 just as death and hades are closely associated in Rev 20:14, strongly suggesting that the rider on the pallid horse represents some sort of supernatural grim reaper who's in charge of gathering up and organizing the dead for their journey across the river Styx; so to speak.

Seeing as how Death is destined for the lake of brimstone, then I think it's safe to assume that the rider on the pallid horse is a sinister being who has no interest in folk while they're alive, but the moment they pass away, his army is right there to capture its prize.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone marked for hell passes away, these eerie phantoms emerge, uttering awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken prey down into the ground. I don't know if any of that is true or not; but it's about as accurate a depiction of that sinister being's activities as I can imagine for now.

But can you picture in your mind's eye just how shocking and terrifying it would be to die and of a sudden be able to see the spirit creatures all around us stalking people day and night 24/7 without our knowing, patiently waiting the moment when they can haul us off?
_

 

[Aimiel]

We're not yet the victorious church that Jesus is coming back for. He said that the works that He did: we would do; and even GREATER. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of anyone yet actually walking on water, during a storm. I believe that there will be greater miracles than Jesus did but also that we will fulfill His projections of us. His Word says that Jesus is SEATED at The Right Hand of the Father, expecting 'till His enemies are made His Footstool. The last enemy that will be destroyed is Death. We will avail ourselves of the power and authority He left us in His Last Will (the New Testament) and corral Death, himself. Scripture says that in that day: men will seek death and not find it. I believe that will be because the victorious church that Jesus is coming back to collect will have taken hold of and enforce the victory that Jesus won over death on Calvary. We have a long way to go, but His Word is truth. We have power over all principalities, powers and even the rulers over the darkness of this earth: Death, Hell and all spiritual wickedness in high places that exalts itself over the knowledge of God. I look forward to that day with GREAT expectation. Evil men and seducers are waxing worse and worse but where sin abounds: grace abounds even more. Thank God!!! :thumb:

:aimiel:

 

[Aimiel]

Keep in mind that Hades is a word that is simply used to label the state of death, or the place of the dead, but when I say "the place" I don't mean a physical location where people go; rather "going to Hades" is akin to "going to sleep". It's not a literal place, but rather a state of being. Also keep in mind that we all go to Hades when we die, not only the wicked.

Oh? Not me!!! I've been promised that I'll never see death. In fact, even before Jesus made that promise, the psalmist wrote that he would, "walk through the valley of the shadow of death," which is comforting to me; because I've never heard about the shadow of a dog ever biting anyone. We pass from life into Life Everlasting when our time comes. Jesus said that we won't die if we believe in Him. I take Him at His Word: literally. I do appreciate the imagery they used in Ghost, which depicts demons quite admirably; but in reality: they're far more frightening and powerful than depicted. I like the description given in the book: "Divine Revelation of Hell," written by Mary K. Baxter, in which she described the location of hell (below the earth in the very core) as well as the image of hell appearing as a woman, lying on her back with her legs spread and every few seconds: "Plop! Plop!" people would fall into the center of hell and then be chained and carried off to their own personal and isolated pit to be tormented in flames as they screamed and cried for help. She described pastors, witches and many others and their fate as she visited hell alongside Jesus for 30 or 40 days, every single night. She was commissioned by Jesus to write her books and was later allowed to visit Heaven and wrote a book about that, too.

 

[Freedm]

since you were not persuaded by Jesus resurrection , you won't hear me

Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ...

Luk 16:31 And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

Ya, I got the reference, I just don't get why you felt the need to tell that to me. What, according to you, did Jesus resurrection not convince me of?

 

[Freedm]

.


The tool most utilized in the Bible to represent death is the sword. However, at Rev 6:8, death and the sword are distinctly individual.

The name of the rider on the pallid horse is Death. He and hades are closely associated in Rev 6:8 just as death and hades are closely associated in Rev 20:14, strongly suggesting that the rider on the pallid horse represents some sort of supernatural grim reaper who's in charge of gathering up and organizing the dead for their journey across the river Styx; so to speak.

Seeing as how Death is destined for the lake of brimstone, then I think it's safe to assume that the rider on the pallid horse is a sinister being who has no interest in folk while they're alive, but the moment they pass away, his army is right there to capture its prize.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone marked for hell passes away, these eerie phantoms emerge, uttering awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken prey down into the ground. I don't know if any of that is true or not; but it's about as accurate a depiction of that sinister being's activities as I can imagine for now.

But can you picture in your mind's eye just how shocking and terrifying it would be to die and of a sudden be able to see the spirit creatures all around us stalking people day and night 24/7 without our knowing, patiently waiting the moment when they can haul us off?
_

I know very well the reference of the movie Ghost. I too, have often thought of those scenes and how creepy they are. Thankfully, they're nowhere near the truth. The Bible tells us that the dead know nothing and that when we die we sleep in the ground with our fathers. It's only on resurrection day, the last day, that we regain life and consciousness and it is then that we will stand before the judgment throne and only then will we either enter into eternal life or damnation.

 

[Freedm]

We're not yet the victorious church that Jesus is coming back for. He said that the works that He did: we would do; and even GREATER. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of anyone yet actually walking on water, during a storm.

Do you think it's possible that when Jesus said we would do greater things than these, that he was talking about the things we would do after our resurrection and inheritance of the new earth?

 

[Freedm]

Oh? Not me!!! I've been promised that I'll never see death..

Do you really think you will never die? Haven't all the saints before you died? Or are you referring to something else?

 

[Freedm]

She was commissioned by Jesus to write her books and was later allowed to visit Heaven and wrote a book about that, too.

I find that kind of stuff fascinating, and I myself own the book "23 minutes in hell". Unfortunately I've since come to believe that these authors, though they honestly believe what they're writing, are recounting their own imagination, not actual events.

 

[way 2 go]

Ya, I got the reference, I just don't get why you felt the need to tell that to me. What, according to you, did Jesus resurrection not convince me of?

Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ...

 

[Freedm]

Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ...

Dude, either tell me what point you're trying to make or let it go. Simply quoting a scripture verse does not make your point any clearer.