ECT Graven Images

[Nihilo]

God, notwithstanding, of course. :AMR:

AMR

Oh no, I get it.

 

[Danoh]

God, notwithstanding, of course. :AMR:

AMR

Hah! Spot on, brother; spot on!

 

[dodge]

CatholicCrusader;4757271]A little while ago my Church was called a whore, and then my brethren were called whores. Ah, such love from my protestant brothers. Well, the person who said that then posted this: EXODUS 20. do NOT MAKE OR BOW BEFORE STATUES. I think he misquoted that, but let's let that detail go. I believe he was referring to artwork in our parishes, so let's explore that, shall we?

I did not misquote anything:

Exo 20:4
¶
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Not bow to what ? refer back to Ex.20:4

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth:


FYI, I am no brother with idolaters.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

Where you decide to practice what you believe does NOT change God's mind or Word.

 

[dodge]

Oh good grief! I gave you the most precise answer you'll ever get. If you don't see the answer there then that's because you just don't want to see it.

"..... Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon"......"

That's the nut of it.

What you just posted would make praying to Mary by depending on her and not God a perfect example of IDOLATRY.

 

[dodge]

Why would you use C.A. and not use the scriptures ? You have NO support in scripture for the statues Roman Catholics bow before.

 

[dodge]

Well, to call beautiful paintings and artwork Idols, and then to extrapolate from that that my Church is a whore is also pretty lame, wouldn't you say?

Rev 19:2

For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.


FYI, Your "church" murdered many who would not join her in her idolatry like praying to Mary and bowing to idols.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....FYI, Your "church" murdered many who would not join her in her idolatry like praying to Mary and bowing to idols.

Too stupid to comment on

 

[Catholic Crusader]

 

[turbosixx]

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image".

I would suggest the problem is not with the words "graven image" but with man seeing what he wants to see in scripture.

God said 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not make for yourself. Man does not have the authority to make graven images that man decides to make. God commanding us is a TOTALLY different thing, it's what HE wants and he has the authority.

 

[Danoh]

I would suggest the problem is not with the words "graven image" but with man seeing what he wants to see in scripture.

God said 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not make for yourself. Man does not have the authority to make graven images that man decides to make. God commanding us is a TOTALLY different thing, it's what HE wants and he has the authority.

Finally - you and I agree on something.

:thumb:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Wick Stick]

Well, if you want to go by the letter, then the creation of any statue or engraving is forbidden, except that it is commissioned by God Himself.

But do you really want to go by the letter? That stuff kills...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, if you want to go by the letter, then the creation of any statue or engraving is forbidden, except that it is commissioned by God Himself.

But do you really want to go by the letter? That stuff kills...

I don't think that is a correct interpretation when all of Christian teaching in its totality is taken into account.

 

[ttruscott]

I would suggest the problem is not with the words "graven image" but with man seeing what he wants to see in scripture.

God said 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not make for yourself. Man does not have the authority to make graven images that man decides to make. God commanding us is a TOTALLY different thing, it's what HE wants and he has the authority.

Reading God said 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, this way, ie, emphasis on for yourself, might imply that it is ok to make a graven image for someone else....?

I don't think it carries this emphasis.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Reading God said 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, this way, ie, emphasis on for yourself, might imply that it is ok to make a graven image for someone else....?

I don't think it carries this emphasis.

Interesting point I have never heard before. But I honestly don't think it is the real point of the argument. Good eye though.

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

A little while ago my Church was called a whore, and then my brethren were called whores. Ah, such love from my protestant brothers. Well, the person who said that then posted this: EXODUS 20. do NOT MAKE OR BOW BEFORE STATUES. I think he misquoted that, but let's let that detail go. I believe he was referring to artwork in our parishes, so let's explore that, shall we?

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

This is correct.