ECT Graven Images

[Catholic Crusader]

A little while ago my Church was called a whore, and then my brethren were called whores. Ah, such love from my protestant brothers. Well, the person who said that then posted this: EXODUS 20. do NOT MAKE OR BOW BEFORE STATUES. I think he misquoted that, but let's let that detail go. I believe he was referring to artwork in our parishes, so let's explore that, shall we?

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

 

[Nick M]

What an idiot post. Here, pay attention.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

Being told to make something is not them making something for themselves.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What an idiot post..........

But yours is very thoughtful, right? Have a nice day.

 

[jamie]

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

The Mercy Seat symbolized the Father's throne. How often was it seen?

 

[patrick jane]

The Mercy Seat symbolized the Father's throne. How often was it seen?

your questions never make sense

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Mercy Seat symbolized the Father's throne. How often was it seen?

I don't know, and what does that have to do with statues in a Catholic parish?

your questions never make sense

I must agree in this case.

 

[Nick M]

your questions never make sense

Jamie has taken over for godrulz in obfuscation.

 

[Danoh]

Jamie has taken over for godrulz in obfuscation.

:rotfl:

 

[jamie]

I don't know, and what does that have to do with statues in a Catholic parish?

You said, "The commandment about 'graven images' is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: 'And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.' Here, God is commanding that images be made!"

The mercy seat was made for the Father at his direction.

There I will meet with you and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel. (Exodus 25:22 NASB)​

Why did you bring up Exodus 25 if you didn't want it discussed?

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

A little while ago my Church was called a whore, and then my brethren were called whores. Ah, such love from my protestant brothers. Well, the person who said that then posted this: EXODUS 20. do NOT MAKE OR BOW BEFORE STATUES. I think he misquoted that, but let's let that detail go. I believe he was referring to artwork in our parishes, so let's explore that, shall we?

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

Personal appollogy from a non Catholic friend.

Western eschatology is to blame.

Keep on keeping on my crusading crusader in Christ!

Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Personal appollogy from a non Catholic friend.

Western eschatology is to blame.

Keep on keeping on my crusading crusader in Christ!

Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app

That's very kind. Thank you.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

........Why did you bring up Exodus 25 if you didn't want it discussed?

Because it is not the topic. I brought up the Cherubim statues because it proves that God does not have a problem with statues of spiritual beings.

 

[jamie]

Because it is not the topic. I brought up the Cherubim statues because it proves that God does not have a problem with statues of spiritual beings.

I responded to your post because the mercy seat was for the Father as he commanded. The cherubim were seen once a year by the high priest on the Day of Atonement. It's okay to worship the Father.

What are your scriptures for graven images that the Father did not command?

 

[Tambora]

A little while ago my Church was called a whore, and then my brethren were called whores. Ah, such love from my protestant brothers. Well, the person who said that then posted this: EXODUS 20. do NOT MAKE OR BOW BEFORE STATUES. I think he misquoted that, but let's let that detail go. I believe he was referring to artwork in our parishes, so let's explore that, shall we?

The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

Hi CC,

God gave the Jews detailed instructions of the temple and the items in the temple.
They were not to build the temple any ol' way they wanted, and they were not to place in it any ol' graven image they wanted.
And they most certainly did not make copies of those temple images to sell to the congregation to take home and set in their houses.

To even try to use the scriptures of the specific instructions God gave the Jews as justification that the RCC can do it any ol' way they want to is lame.

 

[Danoh]

This issue is like the one on the thread about tattoos that Musterion posted (in which some took issue with my comments out of their obvious ignorance of why the LORD informed Israel through Moses as to WHY HE considered images printed on one's body an abomination).

There too, He was referring to idolotry; thus His Words "For I am the LORD."

In other words, HE ALONE is worthy of worship.

What became of Israel whenever they would make more of their kings, their leaders, their various added traditions and rituals, and even the Temple the subject of their fool reverence OVER the God of Israel?

Anyway...

Leviticus 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

You see that - because I ALONE AM THE LORD GOD.

What that is, is bowing down to other than the LORD ALONE.

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

The origin of that mess?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

As in the origin of the supposed Christ Mass Tree...

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. 10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

The orgin of placing gifts under said tree was in worship to their pagan tree deity.

But, as Romans 1 relates: we human beings are by the very fact of the Genesis three account of the serpent (the shining one's) lie; we are by nature a self-worshipping creature - eventually we could not but replace the giving of gifts towards appeasing a tree god with giving them (too often) toward appeasing one another :chuckle:

Not saying there is anything wrong with giving a gift to those we care about.

Rather, that idol worship was what the above kinds of issues are dealing with.

Thus His INSISTENCE that I am the LORD...that HE ALONE is worthy of worship.

Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. 7:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

While, this side of the Cross we still find the issue of...

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Obviously, some have taken even that as an intruction to take all sorts of self-punishment.

Man cannot help but desire to worship the creature (himself) over the Creator.

Thus, the need for so many to rationalize the pagan practices of Constantine created out of a merge of the various pagan religions than at odds with one another throughout the pagan Roman Empire.

What the secular world in its ignorance, refers to as "the history of Christianity"

 

[Danoh]

Personal appollogy from a non Catholic friend.

Western eschatology is to blame.

Keep on keeping on my crusading crusader in Christ!

Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app

:doh:

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

:doh:

Idols come in all forms. Protestants have made God's of theologians, modern prophets, buildings, tithe base, ritual, Tenants of belief, Themselves and their fleshly walk, one another and their fleshly walk, judgment of homosexuals on a prolific basis, judgment of people in general.

Do we condemn one another and divide the eternal BoC that was purchased and paid for?

Do we level all the buildings and start over?

Or should we just pour the ointment of Love out and recognize that only the Head of the BoC is Perfect, while all human endeavor in this kingdom of dust makes error and Jesus is the eternal unity?


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hi CC,

God gave the Jews detailed instructions of the temple and the items in the temple.
They were not to build the temple any ol' way they wanted, and they were not to place in it any ol' graven image they wanted.
And they most certainly did not make copies of those temple images to sell to the congregation to take home and set in their houses.

To even try to use the scriptures of the specific instructions God gave the Jews as justification that the RCC can do it any ol' way they want to is lame.

Well, to call beautiful paintings and artwork Idols, and then to extrapolate from that that my Church is a whore is also pretty lame, wouldn't you say?

 

[Danoh]

Years ago, I got to know a man recently arrived from a small village in an underdeveloped nation.

A heck of an individual; he was ever singing; a smile ever on his face and warm greeting to one and all.

He was living in a part of town not one of the best to live in.

One late afternoon, while visiting him at his simple studio apartment; he was eating a meal he had prepared when he accidentally knocked it all over his floor.

At which point, he completely ignored it and went on with his conversation.

After a time, I mentioned to him that he might want to clean that up as it could attract rats.

He merely smiled that great warm smile of his and said, simply "they have to eat too."

Curious; I asked him what he meant by that.

He explained that in his religion certain creatures were considered a reincarnation of ancestors.

That for all he knew; the rat who ate that food on the floor might have been one of his relatives in a former life.

Intrigued; I pressed him for more about his beliefs.

First, he pointed to a dried up slice of bread attached by a screw to the inside of his studio's door; and shared with me what all that was about.

Then he pointed to a cigar on a ledge, accompanied by a glass of water, and a cup cake.

Next to that, a statue about a foot tall.

I related that that statue looked like the kind I had often seen in various Roman Catholic homes.

He then related that that was what it was.

That "back when the Roman Catholic Church had been out forcing their way on everyone" his village had "been forced to hide" their "reverence of" their "dead ancestors, in the same Catholic 'saint' statues the Catholics use..."

'What Religion do you hold to,' I asked this simple man; who turned out a bit more informed then he appeared.

"Voodoo..." he replied.

'So, you pray to that thing' I asked; still fascinated by it all.

"Yes" he replied.

As I was then in the world, I responded like the world does - 'Cool' I replied....

Years later, while reading through Romans 1; I recalled my friend from those years back.

And I missed him...

As much as I now lamented where he might one day end up eternally, due to the insistence of men to hand down to their children the rationalizing of their various forms of "worshipped the creature more than the Creator."

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Graven Images

Years ago, I got to know a man recently arrived from a small village in an underdeveloped nation.

A heck of an individual; he was ever singing; a smile ever on his face and warm greeting to one and all.

He was living in a part of town not one of the best to live in.

One late afternoon, while visiting him at his simple studio apartment; he was eating a meal he had prepared when he accidentally knocked it all over his floor.

At which point, he completely ignored it and went on with his conversation.

After a time, I mentioned to him that he might want to clean that up as it could attract rats.

He merely smiled that great warm smile of his and said, simply "they have to eat too."

Curious; I asked him what he meant by that.

He explained that in his religion certain creatures were considered a reincarnation of ancestors.

That for all he knew; the rat who ate that food on the floor might have been one of his relatives in a former life.

Intrigued; I pressed him for more about his beliefs.

First, he pointed to a dried up slice of bread attached by a screw to the inside of his studio's door; and shared with me what all that was about.

Then he pointed to a cigar on a ledge, accompanied by a glass of water, and a cup cake.

Next to that, a statue about a foot tall.

I related that that statue looked like the kind I had often seen in various Roman Catholic homes.

He then related that that was what it was.

That "back when the Roman Catholic Church had been out forcing their way on everyone" his village had "been forced to hide" their "reverence of" their "dead ancestors, in the same Catholic 'saint' statues the Catholics use..."

'What Religion do you hold to,' I asked this simple man; who turned out a bit more informed then he appeared.

"Voodoo..." he replied.

'So, you pray to that thing' I asked; still fascinated by it all.

"Yes" he replied.

As I was then in the world, I responded like the world does - 'Cool' I replied....

Years later, while reading through Romans 1; I recalled my friend from those years back.

And I missed him...

As much as I now lamented where he might one day end up eternally, due to the insistence of men to hand down to their children the rationalizing of their various forms of "worshipped the creature more than the Creator."

My father was having a very serious surgery.

I was praying in the hospital Chappell.

A Hindu dressed nurse came in to the Chappell and laid her hands upon a beautiful statue of the Good Shepherd tending sheep.

I thought it was beautiful, because she had turned to Jesus and she was responding as she had grown up to respond.

God never demands we change for Him in the flesh.

God became flesh so we could understand Him.

Perhaps your respect to his belief system planted a seed of respect and softened his heart to the hearing of the gospel.

Perhaps God used you before you even wanted Him to.

Debate with that friend would have only planted them more firmly in their ways.

Love to that friend can never be counted an error.

In respecting where people are coming from, they tend to become curious about where your Love came from.

The Spirit invisibly works, even when we are unaware.

To the Spirit, everything is a silent teacher for better or worse.

I don't say this to disrespect your beautiful intention, I say this to assure you, you may not have had the effect you believe and mourn over.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary