ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Does Calvinism take the wind out of the sails of evangelism? Properly understood and sincerely believed, it does exactly the opposite. Believing that God has a sovereign plan to bring all his elect to himself actually encourages evangelism. It gives confidence to us, God's people, to fulfill our God-given responsibility to spread his gospel. We know that our labor in the Lord is never in vain (1 Cor. 15:58)!

Do you really "share" the Gospel on TOL? If you do, I haven't seen it. I have shared it and many others as well. However, there are many, such as yourself who don't.

 

[TulipBee]

Yeah, and it's specifically Reformed belief :thumb:

How you haven't noticed things like this:
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

and how the Catholic Church's papacy was built with it in mind, is beyond me. They made the pope God so that he could pontificate who draws near- it was control via religion, Rome's bread and butter.

You all don't realize just how close to home Calvinist belief is, and how unorthodox yours is :doh:

We can tell she is from a fringe denomination that surrounds themselves heavily on semi pelagianism. She hears things in her church so frequently for so long, she cant get out of the cult no matter how hard she tries. This is the reason for her repetitive questions while she never heard the answers no matter how the double edge sword cuts through the core of her bones. She is pretty much all chopped up with God's words and yet don't hear them.

 

[Cross Reference]

Grace is dependent upon a disposition. That means it is NOT unmerited.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Paul said the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation for any who believe.

Calvinism says an individual's prior election is the power of God unto salvation. Believing the Gospel is merely the means through which election is effected in those who were chosen to be saved, but the Gospel, in itself, has no power to save. If it did have, it would be able to save the non-elect as well, which Calvinists flatly deny. So if you're non-elect, you cannot possibly be saved even if you "believe" the saving Gospel. Even if you do believe it and are convinced you're in Christ, if you're non-elect your faith is false. You will fall away sooner or later, or be revealed as a tare among wheat.

Both propositions cannot be true. One of them is false.

Reject the cultists. Have nothing to do with them or their false gospel doctrine of demons.

Calvinists aren't ones who work off of logic, reason and common sense. Good post by the way.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We can tell she is from a fringe denomination that surrounds themselves heavily on semi pelagianism. She hears things in her church so frequently for so long, she cant get out of the cult no matter how hard she tries. This is the reason for her repetitive questions while see never heard the answers no matter how the double edge sword cuts through the core of her bones. She is pretty much all chopped up with God's words and yet don't hear them.

And, of course, as usual, you are wrong. No mystery involved there.

 

[TulipBee]

But you won't give them the actual good news - that Christ died for all, them included.



Right - that which is not proclaimed won't reach them.



Luke 22:20-21, Jesus' actual acknowledgement of Judas' presence after saying this is awkward for you.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

At first glance the phrase*"He died for all" would lead you to think that Jesus died for every individual who has ever lived. But upon a closer look we see something different revealed. When Paul speaks of people dying, in relation to the death of Christ, he is speaking of the Christians who have died in Christ:*"Now if we have died with Christ..."*(Rom. 6:8);*"If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world..."*(Col. 2:20);*"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"*(Col. 3:3);*"It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him"*(2 Tim. 2:11). The only ones who have died with Christ are the believers, not the unbelievers. Therefore, this verse can only make sense if it is understood that the "all" spoken of is not everyone who has ever lived, but only the Christians:*"...that one (Jesus) died for all (the Christians), therefore all (the Christians) died..."

But, you might ask, "If God meant only the Christians, then why did He use the word ‘all'?" I believe it is because from all eternity God knew who He had chosen to be the elect and the eternal plan of redemption was carried out to reclaim "all" He had chosen. Therefore, the "all" to Him is the all for which He intended the death of Christ to atone.
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/all-men-saved.htm

 

[TulipBee]

You are in deep trouble if Christ's blood was not for the ungodly and enemies Romans 5:6 KJV, Romans 5:10 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV

You're in deep trouble when you and your denomination denies it is man who: - is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

 

[musterion]

Grace is dependent upon a disposition. That means it is NOT unmerited.

That is a lie, devil.

God has been showering the planet and everyone on it with grace for 2,000 + years. His just wrath is, for now, in abeyance. He is not opening the earth beneath the feet of fist-waving blasphemers who spit on His grace. He is not striking dead false teachers who, for now, vex the Body of Christ. If He did, you would not be here.

Repent while you can. Believe the Gospel of grace.

 

[TulipBee]

I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

Let you be accursed Galatians 1:8-9 KJV

:wave2:

You should wave bye bye to easy believism in your denomination. Get out of the entertainment club! Your club's alter calls are false. Age of accountability is not true.

"Easy believism" is a derogatory label used by some people to describe one or two different "ways" of becoming a*Christian. First is the notion that nothing more is necessary for*salvation*than an intellectual acknowledgment of God's work on the cross, accompanied by a verbal appeal to be saved. This "formula for salvation" is often coupled with the accusation that it is then okay to go out and live a sinful life without any good works since a person has said "The Sinner's Prayer" and is now saved no matter what. Second, the other sense in which the term is used is when describing the idea of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, where no works are necessary to obtain salvation.*

In the sense of the first definition, we say that "easy believism" is false. In the sense of the second definition, we say that "easy believism" is true. Let's elaborate.

First of all, salvation is not merely an intellectual assent and verbal declaration of Christ as Savior. Even the demons believe that God exists (James 2:19). Our faith in God is not*ascentia,*that is, mere intellectual acknowledgment. Instead it is*fiducia, a faithful trust. The first sense has no heart, no commitment to God, and is ultimately without God. Therefore, it is an empty belief, has no power, does not change the person (2 Cor. 5:17,*John 3:3), and bears no godly fruit (Gal. 5:22). When we are truly saved, we want to follow Christ (John 10:27-28). That is why*1 John 2:4*says, "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Obviously, Christians are called to obey Christ--not live in in sin.*Rom. 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" So, in this sense of "easy believism," we would agree that it is false since it negates the need of repentance and holiness (1 Peter 1:16).
https://carm.org/what-is-easy-believism

 

[TulipBee]

Paul says - 'this is what we preach' - not 'this what we preach to believers.'

The Calvinist says - 'this what we preach...to believers.'

Who would risk preaching a different Gospel after reading Galatians 1:8-9? It would be obviously be wise to keep the Gospel for believers and unbelievers the same.

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you (believers) a gospel other than what you accepted (when they were unbelievers), let them be under God’s curse!

And what could be more fundamental than the extent of Christ's death and resurrection? The Calvinist tells unbelievers that it was not necessarily for THEM. Astonishing.

A different gospel.

You lied again

 

[TulipBee]

Here Piper stumbles in trying to explain a sense in which Christ died for all:



This sense (in which 'Christ died to save all') is never explained and so his video appeal to unbelievers is rendered disingenuous since they think the sense in which Christ died for their sins is unto salvation. Piper never disabuses them of such. Honesty demands that he, as a Calvinist, tells them that Christ did not die unto salvation for all men...but, of course, to do so would destroy the very Gospel he attempts to preach.

Limited atonement is simply untenable.

Seven point Calvinists isn't the same as 5 point Calvinists. When you speak of him, you speak of new Calvinism. Now you know so be careful of your wicked words that misleads

 

[Cross Reference]

You CANNOT use the book of James as a reference to make your point. Why? Because James says he is writing to the "Scattered tribes of Israel. Therefore, whatever he's saying has nothing to do with the Gentiles. You need to learn how to "Rightly Divide" the word.

Is his message, as you say meant to be applied only to them, anyless the message as it should apply to every gentile Christian?

If so then the Bible in its enterity is worthless to us who are.

 

[TulipBee]

For the same reason TB can't formulate his/her own response to your simple question, but instead has to resort to c&p.

I'm done repeating myself a billion times to those that can't hear. It's all in my past posts. Get over it if I don't have time for the goats.

 

[Nang]

Grace is dependent upon a disposition. That means it is NOT unmerited.

Only God can change the disposition of a depraved sinner that hates Him and denies Him; which is the condition of all mankind.

Only God imputed the sin of Adam and issued a death sentence upon all the sons of Adam, and only God provided the payment of that death sentence through sending His own Son into the world to die in place of souls He would save. Only God imputed the righteousness of His Christ to the account of those souls. Only God could work this Pardon and only God can forgive sins.

Only God has the power to raise these justified sinners from darkness to light; from unbelief to faith; from being enemies of God to love for God; from death to new spiritual life.

This defines the saving grace of God that is undeserving, unconditional, unmerited, irresistable, and promised since the fall in the garden of Eden.

Only God chooses who will receive His favor and inherit everlasting life in His Kingdom. Only God is King and even earthly kings alone choose who can live within their courts.

So grace is unconditional altogether, and it is particular according to the holy justice of God.

 

[Nang]

You're in deep trouble when you and your denomination denies it is man who: - is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

I doubt heir is part of a denomination, for most MADists are not attending church members. At least that is the impression I get.

 

[musterion]

Grace is meaningless if Calvinism is true.

The elect are under grace from eternity past, and so cannot ever be lost but will irresistibly be saved. To say they're 'under grace' means nothing.

Reprobates cannot benefit from grace. They are doomed from eternity past no matter what they do or don't do.

It's one thing for unbelievers to refuse to avail themselves to God's grace in Christ; Calvinism does it for them.

Calvinism denies and perverts grace in every possible way. It is of Satan.

 

[Cross Reference]

Only God can change the disposition of a depraved sinner that hates Him and denies Him; which is the condition of all mankind.

You mean like this: Said Jesus, "I tell you, . . . unless you repent (change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally." Luke 13:3 (AMP)

Only God imputed the sin of Adam and issued a death sentence upon all the sons of Adam, and only God provided the payment of that death sentence through sending His own Son into the world to die in place of souls He would save. Only God imputed the righteousness of His Christ to the account of those souls. Only God could work this Pardon and only God can forgive sins.

God imputed nothing to Adam except the issue of dealing his own vanity, per Rom. 8:20.

Only God has the power to raise these justified sinners from darkness to light; from unbelief to faith; from being enemies of God to love for God; from death to new spiritual life.

Your scripture for all that, please?

This defines the saving grace of God that is undeserving, unconditional, unmerited, irresistable, and promised since the fall in the garden of Eden.

According to who?

Only God chooses who will receive His favor and inherit everlasting life in His Kingdom. Only God is King and even earthly kings alone choose who can live within their courts.

By decree, no doubt? Then you serve an unjust god. A god of stone.

So grace is unconditional altogether, and it is particular according to the holy justice of God.

You say so grace is what? unconditional, you say?? You better hope you are wrong.

"The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all." Psalm 34:18-19 (KJV)

Of course God's grace is conditional. What else could it be?

 

[Nang]

Paul said the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation for any who believe.

Agreed.

Calvinism says an individual's prior election is the power of God unto salvation.

Disagree. Reformers believe Regeneration (change of heart) occurs that gives the sinner a new spiritual capacity to hear and comprehend the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ . . Which is the power to save.

Believing the Gospel is merely the means through which election is effected in those who were chosen to be saved, but the Gospel, in itself, has no power to save. If it did have, it would be able to save the non-elect as well, which Calvinists flatly deny. So if you're non-elect, you cannot possibly be saved even if you "believe" the saving Gospel. Even if you do believe it and are convinced you're in Christ, if you're non-elect your faith is false. You will fall away sooner or later, or be revealed as a tare among wheat.

Both propositions cannot be true. One of them is false.

God imputing the righteousness of Jesus Christ to the sinner is their salvation. Election simply reveals God's intentions and promises (covenant) to do so in the particular lifetimes of His saints.

Reject the cultists. Have nothing to do with them or their false gospel doctrine of demons.

Reject your false conceptions of "Calvinism." They are only making you miserable and cause you to kick against the pricks.

 

[Nang]

2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

At first glance the phrase*"He died for all" would lead you to think that Jesus died for every individual who has ever lived. But upon a closer look we see something different revealed. When Paul speaks of people dying, in relation to the death of Christ, he is speaking of the Christians who have died in Christ:*"Now if we have died with Christ..."*(Rom. 6:8);*"If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world..."*(Col. 2:20);*"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"*(Col. 3:3);*"It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him"*(2 Tim. 2:11). The only ones who have died with Christ are the believers, not the unbelievers. Therefore, this verse can only make sense if it is understood that the "all" spoken of is not everyone who has ever lived, but only the Christians:*"...that one (Jesus) died for all (the Christians), therefore all (the Christians) died..."

But, you might ask, "If God meant only the Christians, then why did He use the word ‘all'?" I believe it is because from all eternity God knew who He had chosen to be the elect and the eternal plan of redemption was carried out to reclaim "all" He had chosen. Therefore, the "all" to Him is the all for which He intended the death of Christ to atone.
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/all-men-saved.htm

"All" used by the Apostles referred to Gentiles as well as Jews being saved by the grace of God. God saves out of "all" nations and races of men. It is just that simple and is not to be understood in a universal sense.

 

[Cross Reference]

"All" used by the Apostles referred to Gentiles as well as Jews being saved by the grace of God. God saves out of "all" nations and races of men. It is just that simple and is not to be understood in a universal sense.

Where do you fit in??