ECT Grace: God isn't mad at sin, or just isn't doing anything about it at the moment?

[musterion]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

 

[jamie]

What is your view?

God isn't angry about a person's sin. In fact, humans were designed to need the holy Spirit.

Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" (Luke 11:13)

The plan is for most people to receive his Spirit during the Last Day.

 

[glorydaz]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

Interesting.....

Sin was dealt with at the cross. This verse comes to mind when this question comes up.

John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

 

[Tambora]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

This is an interesting topic to discuss, but can also be uncomfortable to discuss.
So I hope we can discuss it without anyone thinking we are saying GOD is evil.

We can all recognize that GOD does not always stop mankind from doing horrible things, or horrible things being done to mankind.
It was that way from the beginning. (GOD did not prevent Adam from eating the fruit.)

The 'uncomfortable' part of the discussion is in how we view GOD, and how that view seems clash at times.
For instance, we constantly see folks compare GOD to a father figure.
And rightfully so.
But we choose to pick the nice and loving side of the father figure and not the vengeful and wrathful side of the father figure.

Take yourself (or any father) for example.
If Satan came to you and asked to devastate and torture your son, is there any way in hell you would agree to that???
Hell no!
But we see GOD doing that very thing with Job.
So it confuses some folks about GOD because we wouldn't think any father that would allow such a horrible thing to happen to their child would be a good father.
Similarly, we would question a father that would purposely place delicious looking poison fruit on the same plate as the non-poison fruit his little child eats.
If any father did that today, we would want to lock him up!
But we essentially see GOD doing just that in the garden of Eden.

It's the age old question of why did GOD allow a doorway for evil in the first place.
What sort of father does that?

 

[glorydaz]

This is an interesting topic to discuss, but can also be uncomfortable to discuss.
So I hope we can discuss it without anyone thinking we are saying GOD is evil.

We can all recognize that GOD does not always stop mankind from doing horrible things, or horrible things being done to mankind.
It was that way from the beginning. (GOD did not prevent Adam from eating the fruit.)

The 'uncomfortable' part of the discussion is in how we view GOD, and how that view seems clash at times.
For instance, we constantly see folks compare GOD to a father figure.
And rightfully so.
But we choose to pick the nice and loving side of the father figure and not the vengeful and wrathful side of the father figure.

Take yourself (or any father) for example.
If Satan came to you and asked to devastate and torture your son, is there any way in hell you would agree to that???
Hell no!
But we see GOD doing that very thing with Job.
So it confuses some folks about GOD because we wouldn't think any father that would allow such a horrible thing to happen to their child would be a good father.
Similarly, we would question a father that would purposely place delicious looking poison fruit on the same plate as the non-poison fruit his little child eats.
If any father did that today, we would want to lock him up!
But we essentially see GOD doing just that in the garden of Eden.

It's the age old question of why did GOD allow a doorway for evil in the first place.
What sort of father does that?

One that has eternity in mind, and not just the short time we have in this body of flesh? In the same way, we look to the future when we train up a child in the way he should go....not always pleasant when we have to discipline our sweet little ones.

 

[Tambora]

One that has eternity in mind, and not just the short time we have in this body of flesh? In the same way, we look to the future when we train up a child in the way he should go....not always pleasant when we have to discipline our sweet little ones.

Could be a good point.

Was it discipline for Job?
Discipline for what? GOD said he was a righteous and good man.
GOD allowed Satan to harm him because he WAS a righteous and good man, not because Job had done something wrong.
When we compare 'good' and 'bad' in fathers, could it be said that a 'good' father allows an evil creature to horribly hurt his child to the point of death to discipline them?

Could it be that it is us that needs to redefine our view of what a good father is, and what discipline is?
Is a good father ALWAYS supposed to be gentle and protective no matter what the situation?
Is discipline ALWAYS to punish for wrong behavior, or can discipline also just be a form of training/education even when you haven't done anything wrong?

I interject the following for this discussion:

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[glorydaz]

Could be a good point.

Was it discipline for Job?
Discipline for what? GOD said he was a righteous and good man.
GOD allowed Satan to harm him because he WAS a righteous and good man, not because Job had done something wrong.
When we compare 'good' and 'bad' in fathers, could it be said that a 'good' father allows an evil creature to horribly hurt his child to the point of death to discipline them?

Could it be that it is us that needs to redefine our view of what a good father is, and what discipline is?
Is a good father ALWAYS supposed to be gentle and protective no matter what the situation?
Is discipline ALWAYS to punish for wrong behavior, or can discipline also just be a form of training/education even when you haven't done anything wrong?

I interject the following for this discussion:

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

True. Tribulations are not always for discipline purposes.
They are a necessary part of maturing and growing in the Lord.

Romans 5:3-4 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:​

I think of Job before the Lord allowed satan to cause all that suffering. He undoubtedly gave God the glory for his many blessings, but did He really understand and appreciate the depth and great majesty of God? I see a big change from the beginning to the end....absolutely humbled.

Job 40:3-5 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.​

This verse, in particular, caught my eye.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.​

 

[patrick jane]

Romans 8:22, 23

 

[Tambora]

True. Tribulations are not always for discipline purposes.
They are a necessary part of maturing and growing in the Lord.

Romans 5:3-4 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:​

I think of Job before the Lord allowed satan to cause all that suffering. He undoubtedly gave God the glory for his many blessings, but did He really understand and appreciate the depth and great majesty of God? I see a big change from the beginning to the end....absolutely humbled.

Job 40:3-5 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.​

This verse, in particular, caught my eye.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.​

I just love studying with you!

And this part of your post (highlighting is mine) really says a lot ....

absolutely humbled

With Job, he already esteemed GOD above everything and gave Him all the glory.
Job had a LOT of faith, and his faith endured to the end.
What more did Job need to learn about GOD?
Or I should ask, what DID Job learn?

Job's question through the whole ordeal was "What have I done to deserve this?"
He could think of nothing, and even his friends couldn't come up with anything he had done wrong.
It's a question we all ask when something horrible happens to us when we did nothing wrong.
GOD never gave Job an answer to that question.
I think there was no answer to that question because Job did not deserve it for anything he had done.
But GOD did choose him to suffer for a time at the hands of an evil one.
So what was the point of the suffering if it was not for wrongdoing?
So what was the whole ordeal about?
Perhaps it was for furthering education/knowledge about what GOD has the authority to do to His own creation.
And perhaps that education was not just for Job's benefit, but for all those around him that kept telling him these bad things were happening to him because he did something wrong.
Maybe they all needed to see things a little more clearly.


I offer the following for consideration:

Concerning Israel, who GOD chose to be a light to the world, not just themselves.

Jeremiah 18 KJV
(3) Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
(4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


Who has had a harder time in history than them?
Who has been humbled more than them in history, and has more to come?
And yet, GOD specifically chose them to be His people and be a light to the world.
For His own name's sake, not for their sake.

Which in turn will tie into no respecter of a person's status (sick or healthy, rich or poor), but of GOD's faithfulness.to both the sick and healthy of His people is a surety.

Which completely blows a hole in the health and wealth prosperity preachers.
I can't stand preachers that tell their flock they wouldn't be so sickly and poor if they just had enough faith.

 

[God's Truth]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

People are not reconciled to God until they go through Jesus' body and blood.

One does not go through Jesus until Jesus puts them there.

Jesus puts us in him when we do what he says.

 

[Danoh]

True. Tribulations are not always for discipline purposes.
They are a necessary part of maturing and growing in the Lord.

Romans 5:3-4 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:​

I think of Job before the Lord allowed satan to cause all that suffering. He undoubtedly gave God the glory for his many blessings, but did He really understand and appreciate the depth and great majesty of God? I see a big change from the beginning to the end....absolutely humbled.

Job 40:3-5 Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.​

This verse, in particular, caught my eye.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.​

My own take in all that is somewhat along the following...

Job's context was not only unique, but way before Romans Mystery Age of Unmerited Grace.

The result being that the tribulations described in Romans are not the same.

And in Romans, the tribulations are the everyday tribulations "such as is common to man."

God's "way out of them" for the Believer in this Age?

Paul's point in Romans is that in contrast to the wrath of God the Cross has spared the Believer of - in contrast to that, when focused on - the everyday tribulations of just being on this earth, end up working patience, etc., in us, to the extent that we by faith compare their sufferings to the Cross the Lord suffered on our behalf, when said Grace, had been the least any of us had deserved.

Because Romans 5:8.

In fact, Romans 5 and Romans 8, etc., make for a great resource when counseling someone suffering in the grips of, say, an addiction; or say, a PTSD, or any other of the various forms of tribulations of everyday life and or of those that man brings on himself by his own missteps.

How Job had handled his unique situation is instructive; true.

But it is not really the Body's model.

It is rather, a model for Israel to emulate as they pray "and lead not us not into temptation" during that time when the Adversary Himself will be personally messing with them, see Rev. 12.

Ours is more that the focus of how Romans 15 starts.

Which is based on the fact of Romans 5:1's peace with God, that Romans 5:8 asserts the Cross made ours...when we least deserved it.

 

[Nihilo]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

Sin is, and always has been, flipping the LORD God the bird. We're all guilty of it, and He's provided us just One way of escape for this. Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen! That's the only way to avoid His wrath, for constantly flipping Him the bird.

 

[DAN P]

Sin is, and always has been, flipping the LORD God the bird. We're all guilty of it, and He's provided us just One way of escape for this. Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen! That's the only way to avoid His wrath, for constantly flipping Him the bird.

Hi and as the bible says , the RAIN falls on the JUST and the UNJUST !!

In 1 Cor 3:16 reads , Don't you know that you are God's inner sanctury and the Spirit of God dwells in you !!

Verse 17 If anyone corrupts the inner sanctuary of God , God will RUIN this one , for the inner sanctuary of God is ho;y , which you are !!

dan p

 

[Nihilo]

Hi and as the bible says , the RAIN falls on the JUST and the UNJUST !!

In 1 Cor 3:16 reads , Don't you know that you are God's inner sanctury and the Spirit of God dwells in you !!

Verse 17 If anyone corrupts the inner sanctuary of God , God will RUIN this one , for the inner sanctuary of God is ho;y , which you are !!

dan p

As per your normal Dan, I have little to no idea what you're talking about.

 

[jamie]

Was it discipline for Job?

Job is a parable.

 

[DAN P]

As per your normal Dan, I have little to no idea what you're talking about.

Hi and you have no idea because you are NOT following Paul as per 1 Cor 11:1 !!


And the Greek word CORRUPTS or DEFILE or MAR / is PHINEIRO is a verb in the PRESENT TENSE which places the action of the verb during the dispensation of the Grace of God , period !!

The next verb is DESTROY / PTHEIRO , is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and this action is happening during the BEMA SEAT !!

The 2 next verbs are IS / ESTI and ARE / ESTE and are in the PRESENT TENSE and the ARE means we are ALWAYS holy and in God !!

Very simple for a dispensationalist , so what are you ??

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

I just love studying with you!

And this part of your post (highlighting is mine) really says a lot ....


With Job, he already esteemed GOD above everything and gave Him all the glory.
Job had a LOT of faith, and his faith endured to the end.
What more did Job need to learn about GOD?
Or I should ask, what DID Job learn?

Job's question through the whole ordeal was "What have I done to deserve this?"
He could think of nothing, and even his friends couldn't come up with anything he had done wrong.
It's a question we all ask when something horrible happens to us when we did nothing wrong.
GOD never gave Job an answer to that question.
I think there was no answer to that question because Job did not deserve it for anything he had done.
But GOD did choose him to suffer for a time at the hands of an evil one.
So what was the point of the suffering if it was not for wrongdoing?
So what was the whole ordeal about?
Perhaps it was for furthering education/knowledge about what GOD has the authority to do to His own creation.
And perhaps that education was not just for Job's benefit, but for all those around him that kept telling him these bad things were happening to him because he did something wrong.
Maybe they all needed to see things a little more clearly.


I offer the following for consideration:

Concerning Israel, who GOD chose to be a light to the world, not just themselves.

Jeremiah 18 KJV
(3) Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
(4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


Who has had a harder time in history than them?
Who has been humbled more than them in history, and has more to come?
And yet, GOD specifically chose them to be His people and be a light to the world.
For His own name's sake, not for their sake.

Which in turn will tie into no respecter of a person's status (sick or healthy, rich or poor), but of GOD's faithfulness.to both the sick and healthy of His people is a surety.

Which completely blows a hole in the health and wealth prosperity preachers.
I can't stand preachers that tell their flock they wouldn't be so sickly and poor if they just had enough faith.

Yep. Made me think of Fiddler on the Roof.

Tevye looks up to heaven and says, "I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"

 

[glorydaz]

Job is a parable.

Out-smarting yourself again, I see.

 

[glorydaz]

My own take in all that is somewhat along the following...

Job's context was not only unique, but way before Romans Mystery Age of Unmerited Grace.

The result being that the tribulations described in Romans are not the same.

And in Romans, the tribulations are the everyday tribulations "such as is common to man."

What happened to Job is common to many a man...even today. So back up from whatever conclusion you were about to give.

 

[Danoh]

What happened to Job is common to many a man...even today. So back up from whatever conclusion you were about to give.

Very few in Scripture are depicted as having been personally messed with by the Adversary Himself.

It is...a Dispensational issue *.

Duh-uh

Because...Rom. 5:8

______________

* Which is merely a matter of asking oneself, at some point - "okay, that out of the way; having sorted this or that out, now where doctrinally; is this, Dispensationally...?"

Answer: Time Past...Ages to Come...not...in the But Now.